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Old 02-04-2015, 06:53 PM   #31
AirBourne92
Decent playground baller
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 342
Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
Respectfully, I disagree that squaring up is flat out wrong. There's numerous ways to develop an effective shot (Shawn Marion even hit almost 40% from NBA range at one point) and your approach is another way to make it happen, but to reject the potential effectiveness of squaring the body is totally misguided (not to mention that I do not believe it builds tension in the shoulders).

To be honest, a lot of the internet shooting system marketers seem to have brain-washed a lot of folks trying to get their shot right. It's borderline religious zealotry in many cases. After watching the video above (and others by him), not only are the comments full of "Hey! This worked!", but there's also a heavy touch of "This is the only way and everyone else is completely incorrect."

The Sway

Moreover, I believe a lot of the mechanics that some of the greatest shooters of all-time used have been misinterpreted. For instance, the "sweep and sway" thing. Players weren't literally taught to make their feet sway forward while in mid-air, just as they weren't taught to try to make their feet land in a particular way when they came down. Rather, those things tend to be a natural result from other aspects of the shooting process.

Personally, I find consciously working on a mid-air sway to be unproductive and not always conducive to the actual shooting process. To me, one's feet will move ahead regardless if someone is properly balanced. As long as I followed my mechanics (square, balance, elbow, follow-through, for starters), I don't have much regard for whether I'm swaying or not. If squaring, loading, and firing shooting my shot right makes my feet look funny while in mid-air, I don't think I'd have any idea.

Feelings on Internet Snake Oil Salesmen

I don't know, a lot of those online systems (in particular the proshooting thing) feels like someone trying to make a sale by creating a different way to say the same thing while retroactively trying to suggest that everyone's making a point to follow his advice. I feel as though he could take a video of me shooting and say "Now here's a guy who understands sweep & sway" when it reality working on that aspect played no role in my shooting development.

I feel it's like me making up the "Not Quite Nose" technique where shooters bring the ball back but not quite far enough to hit their nose, then me retroactively going back in history and saying "See, look at everyone following my well-established technique, because it works. This is the new strategy to shooting. They may say they're not following my technique, but that's because they're in the fog and can't see for themselves." I'm glad it works for some, but there's more going on there than simply trying to improve people's shots.

One of those videos discussed how B.E.E.F. didn't work because it was incomplete. I agree. People couldn't just say "B.E.E.F." and expect no other interpretation would be needed. I think the same could be said about whatever other systems are created though (I think that one was F.O.R.E.S.T.). Seems to be a classic case of "They're wrong, let me show you the right way while blanketing it over players who did not use my strategies. Now you pay for my new manifesto."

Many Ways to Break an Egg, Including Squaring Up

Again, purposely severely pointing one's feet from the hoop is fine if that's what works, but squaring one's body is not wrong (says Ray Allen, Richard Hamilton, Steve Kerr, Tim Legler, Kenny Smith, Mark Price and thousands of others). Slight crooks in the feet will happen (just a hair over from perfect foot-point is common and normal when squaring, in fact) but this is far divorced from willfully trying to point the legs in the wrong direction.

I've shot squared to the hoop for the vast majority of my life and it has served me well. On each shot, my goal was to point my feet at the bucket. At some point, I realized my right foot sometimes tilted inward a touch due to my wide stance, but I maintain my square.

As Mark Price says, "the feet are the compass of the body", so when looking for a simple means of forming consistency, squaring the feet will mean squaring the body, which will mean a correctly-elbowed shot will always go straight, no other real adjustments needed from an aiming standpoint. Square and fire.

I hear what you are saying man, and I agree to a degree.

You mentioned Shawn marion who is a great example of shooting without following proper mechanics.


I guess I should have made it clear in my intent, which could be up for debate as well from what you have said regarding marketing a certain system-- "fastest way to gain consistency in jumper"

these basketball players dedicate a significant amount of their time to the sport and can manage to put in hours and hours of work into making their unorthodox shot work to get it to the level of consistency they need in the NBA with the amount of pressure they get.

if someone is playing pick up or is trying to tryout for a team, i would think that a cutting edge system would be the best bet to improve in a short time frame.

as for squaring up, the funny thing is, i think every single great shooter in the NBA in today's league turns their feet if im not mistaken, if not at least 95%.

and that's not to say players in the past weren't good shooters, i think steve kerr completely squares up and he is a great shooter.

but in terms of the evolution of the game in all elements and components, we have been at an all time high, and the whole advancement started in the late 90s i believe.

observing the shooters in today's league, it certainly makes a great correlation in between "advanced" shooting techniques.

sorry if i rambled all over the place lol ill respond better when i get home
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:04 PM   #32
Rake2204
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,001
Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBourne92
I hear what you are saying man, and I agree to a degree.

You mentioned Shawn marion who is a great example of shooting without following proper mechanics.


I guess I should have made it clear in my intent, which could be up for debate as well from what you have said regarding marketing a certain system-- "fastest way to gain consistency in jumper"

these basketball players dedicate a significant amount of their time to the sport and can manage to put in hours and hours of work into making their unorthodox shot work to get it to the level of consistency they need in the NBA with the amount of pressure they get.

if someone is playing pick up or is trying to tryout for a team, i would think that a cutting edge system would be the best bet to improve in a short time frame.
It may be a system, but I balk at referencing it as being cutting edge. As mentioned previously, many aspects of that system are just verbalizing things that happen on a typical shot anyhow (the ball dipping and the "sway" that occurs when someone oftentimes jumps). Still, if it works for people, then it works for people.

The reason I stick to teaching squaring up actually has to do with the ease of establishment (i.e. the ability to improve a stroke in a short time frame).

With developing shooters in need of guidance, I often come across players with their feet splayed all over the place, their body twisted, elbow out, two-hand shooting. The goal is to readily bring order where they previously wasn't any. The simplest effective process? Point one's body at the hoop, shoot straight, generally speaking. The idea is to provide a reference point for which players can develop a consistent stroke made up of readymade calculations upon every spot up.

Quote:
as for squaring up, the funny thing is, i think every single great shooter in the NBA in today's league turns their feet if im not mistaken, if not at least 95%.
I think this aspect is a point of contention and slight miscommunication. To be completely forthright, I think there's a fair amount of shooters who try to square up on every shot and actually end up with the slightest tilt of their feet, even though their body remains primarily square. I do not mind that.

My bigger issue is the more dramatic and intentional non-squaring of one's feet. When teaching shooting, I encourage facing one's target, which often and usually means pointing one's feet "pretty much" at the hoop. I've noticed that attempting to square up can sometimes naturally lead to a slight foot tilt while retaining square, as opposed to willfully suggesting a player not create a direct correlation to the hoop.

Quote:
and that's not to say players in the past weren't good shooters, i think steve kerr completely squares up and he is a great shooter.

but in terms of the evolution of the game in all elements and components, we have been at an all time high, and the whole advancement started in the late 90s i believe.

observing the shooters in today's league, it certainly makes a great correlation in between "advanced" shooting techniques.
Like the conversation I had with Zen earlier, we're probably closer on this than we think, as I don't necessarily mind slight tilts in feet if the body remains square (like, say Kyle Korver, who appears square for all intents and purposes). I'd be very surprised if even the majority of sharp-shooters these days would suggest willfully not squaring up.

Still, surely it appears the shooting technique you posted is helping shooters, and that's cool. It just seems more like a guy's decision to try to whip something up from scratch, create a following, and make a buck, largely by plucking out things that already existed in shooting and trying to make them appear cutting edge.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 02-04-2015 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:12 PM   #33
AirBourne92
Decent playground baller
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 342
Default Re: Help with jumper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
It may be a system, but I balk at referencing it as being cutting edge. As mentioned previously, many aspects of that system are just verbalizing things that happen on a typical shot anyhow (the ball dipping and the "sway" that occurs when someone oftentimes jumps). Still, if it works for people, then it works for people.

The reason I stick to teaching squaring up actually has to do with the ease of establishment (i.e. the ability to improve a stroke in a short time frame).

With developing shooters in need of guidance, I often come across players with their feet splayed all over the place, their body twisted, elbow out, two-hand shooting. The goal is to readily bring order where they previously wasn't any. The simplest effective process? Point one's body at the hoop, shoot straight, generally speaking. The idea is to provide a reference point for which players can develop a consistent stroke made up of readymade calculations upon every spot up.

I think this aspect is a point of contention and slight miscommunication. To be completely forthright, I think there's a fair amount of shooters who try to square up on every shot and actually end up with the slightest tilt of their feet, even though their body remains primarily square. I do not mind that.

My bigger issue is the more dramatic and intentional non-squaring of one's feet. When teaching shooting, I encourage facing one's target, which often and usually means pointing one's feet "pretty much" at the hoop. I've noticed that attempting to square up can sometimes naturally lead to a slight foot tilt while retaining square, as opposed to willfully suggesting a player not create a direct correlation to the hoop.

Like the conversation I had with Zen earlier, we're probably closer on this than we think, as I don't necessarily mind slight tilts in feet if the body remains square (like, say Kyle Korver, who appears square for all intents and purposes). I'd be very surprised if even the majority of sharp-shooters these days would suggest willfully not squaring up.

Still, surely it appears the shooting technique you posted is helping shooters, and that's cool. It just seems more like a guy's decision to try to whip something up from scratch, create a following, and make a buck, largely by plucking out things that already existed in shooting and trying to make them appear cutting edge.


i completely agree with what you are saying, my bad for not understanding the first time.

i think one of the things that is "cutting-edge" is the "hop"

what do you think
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