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Old 02-02-2015, 11:01 PM   #121
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
Lack of competition should never be mentioned when talking about Brady.

If you don't know, the AFC during Brady's first half of his career was superior to the NFC.

- The '01 & '02 Raiders
- Manning's Colts
- Ravens with elite defense
- Steelers with elite defense
- Manning's Broncos

These are the teams Brady had to face in his own conference throughout his career.... 3 of those teams won super bowls, all 5 made a super bowl appearance. And for Brady's competition in the Super Bowl?

01 Rams - One of the greatest offenses in history. Won a super bowl 2 years prior.
03 Panthers - Ok ok ok....one hit wonders
04 Eagles - Extremely talented team that made 4 straight NFC title games
14 Seahawks - One of the greatest defenses ever. Won a super bowl the year before.
those giants teams were no slouch either, took out both NFC's best Packers and Cowboys in 07, and NFC's best Packers and 49ers in 11
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Old 02-02-2015, 11:02 PM   #122
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

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Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
Since we can't decide, lets just say Romo is the GOAT and call it a day.

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Old 02-03-2015, 12:48 AM   #123
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

What about Belichick's standing now? His legacy isn't limited to time in New England either, he won two Super Bowls with the Giants as the ace defensive schemer in Bill Parcells' back pocket. The Giants were 3-0 against Joe Montana teams in the playoffs with him as DC. They didn't just win either, they beat the absolute shit out of them by scores of 17-3, 49-3, 15-13. The San Francisco 49ers, 1980s Team of the Decade, led by the 'GOAT' QB and 'GOAT' WR managed 6.3 ppg against Belichick-coached NYG defenses in the playoffs. Big Blue Wrecking Crew, indeed. Doesn't hurt that they had ****ing Lawrence Taylor though, who often clowned Belichick in team practices and meetings.
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Old 02-03-2015, 06:45 AM   #124
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9erempiree
If we were to even take away stats, Montana would still be GOAT. He does everything better than Brady and considered the greatest in all categories.

Arm- above average arm

IQ- best

Footwork- fantastic, the greatest in history

Scramble- excellent, not only was he a great pocket passer but he was dead accurate on the scramble. A lot of plays involved rolling out the pocket and passing on the run.

Accuracy- greatest in history. Throws to guys in stride. 49ers were notoriously known for "RAC" yards. Run after the catch. One of Walsh's philosophy.


Montana wasn't even the most accurate passer in 49er's history. Scrambling? Plenty of QBs were better, especially the criminally underrated Young. Funny how the 9ers offense ran to perfection whenever Young replaced Joe in the lineup. Young also led the league in 42 statistical categories in his career, compared to 17 total for Joe.

There is no hand down GOAT quarterback, stop trying to affix that title on Montana. Geez. Montana has a case, but so do a few others, including Brady. The revisionist history with this guy is something else. At least with Brady, people acknowledge that Manning was superior for a number of individual seasons (and if they don't, they're idiots). No one acknowledges this with Montana. Frankly, if you had argued Montana > Marino in the mid-80s you would have been laughed at, but these days Montana is considered hands down greater. It's a joke.

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Old 02-03-2015, 06:59 AM   #125
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

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Originally Posted by 9erempiree


He was the system.

How soon people forget that he went to the AFC championship with another team.

Is that why Steve Young put up superior numbers running the WCO? Not only were Young's numbers better, they were arguably the best in history. Even as a backup Steve could hold his own--from 1987-1990 Young tossed 23 TDs with only 6 INTs in the 10 games he replaced Montana in the lineup. Montana was the system, my ass.

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Old 02-03-2015, 07:17 AM   #126
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Comparing the "Golden Age" to the Modern Age is a futile effort anyway. The passing game has changed almost as drastically since 2004 as it did post-1978 through 2003 (when the NFL was at its peak in terms of overall quality and balance). Passing numbers in particular have never been more meaningless and empty. Quarterbacks and Receivers are especially protected at near unfathomable levels compared to the 1990s, nevermind the decade prior to that. CHFF put together a great, nifty little fact-filled article on this years ago and it's really only gotten more drastic and more lopsided. 300 yard games and 4,000 yard seasons are being tossed around like confetti.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ing-game/6778/
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:14 AM   #127
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
Why do Montana supporters always use the "never lost a super bowl" argument? So it's better to lose in the wildcard round than to make the super bowl? It just doesn't make sense.

4 super bowls & 6 appearances > 4 super bowls & 4 appearances

No matter how you slice it

Because they are Brady haters. Haters are going to hate no matter what. That is what they do.

In every Universe, 4 Super Bowl titles and 6 conference titles is better than 4 Super Bowl titles and 4 conference titles - in every Universe except the hater Universe.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:16 AM   #128
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9erempiree
It's not worth it to argue when it is pretty common knowledge that Montana is better. Any football fan will tell you so.

Lets put it this way, Montana was considered GOAT when he was playing. Nobody considers Brady to be GOAT. People are only comparing him to Montana because he finally reach Montana's number of 4.

We are only talking about it because Wilson threw an interception to a rookie or else this discussion would totally be about something else.

There was a nationwide poll done 3 years ago on who was better, Montana or Brady, and the result of the vote was 50/50. That was BEFORE Brady won his 4th Super Bowl and 3rd Super Bowl MVP.

Stop trolling man.

Last edited by Euroleague : 02-04-2015 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:23 AM   #129
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands of Iron
Comparing the "Golden Age" to the Modern Age is a futile effort anyway. The passing game has changed almost as drastically since 2004 as it did post-1978 through 2003 (when the NFL was at its peak in terms of overall quality and balance). Passing numbers in particular have never been more meaningless and empty. Quarterbacks and Receivers are especially protected at near unfathomable levels compared to the 1990s, nevermind the decade prior to that. CHFF put together a great, nifty little fact-filled article on this years ago and it's really only gotten more drastic and more lopsided. 300 yard games and 4,000 yard seasons are being tossed around like confetti.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ing-game/6778/

Yeah well thank Tony Dungy, Bill Polian, and Peyton Manning for that. They kept losing to Brady and Belichick in the playoffs so they forced the NFL to change the rules on how receivers are defended.

It's amazing how none of the Brady haters will ever admit that. Just more undeniable Brady hatred.

The Patriots were so DOMINANT under the old rules that the Colts conspired to make the NFL change the rules to stop them.

So this whole argument BRADY HATERS use to discredit him, is about the most ridiculous of all - even more than the ludicrous BULL SHIT of spy gate.
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Old 02-04-2015, 02:15 AM   #130
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

I am a Niner fan, but missed Montana's reign (which explains why Steve Young is my favorite football player ever).

However as a Niner fan in a Niner household I've seen quite a bit of Montana with a combination of recorded games/classic games on t.v./and all the like.

If I had to pick a QB I would pick Montana. Well actually I would pick Steve Young (again... growing up in the Steve Young era was fun man), but I pick Montana as the greatest, and the better of the two.

It's very tough to compare the two through stats since the game has evolved so much. But from my limited viewing of Montana, and not so limited of Brady I would take Joe.
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Old 01-10-2016, 05:06 PM   #131
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Jerry Rice admits to using stickum.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...-pats-cheaters

Joe Montana admits 49ers' offensive linemen would spray silicon on their shirts, and did so until they were caught.

http://www.ninersnation.com/2015/6/6...-hall-of-famer
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Old 01-10-2016, 05:11 PM   #132
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This is yet more undeniable proof that Deflategate was a fake made up story and false accusation by the NFL against Tom Brady and the New England Patriots. It is also more proof that almost all US sports media was in on it, as they kept claiming over and over that the Patriots did not fumble balls as much as other teams because they took air out of them.


http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/01/05/n...bill-belichick

What the 2015 Fumble Stats Say About Deflategate

As the controversy unfolded last winter, many looked at the Patriots’ low fumble rate and speculated that it resulted from low PSI levels in footballs. But the most recent numbers tell a different story



Robert Duyos/USA Today Sports

By Michael Lopez

Assistant professor of statistics at Skidmore College

@StatsbyLopez

Last winter, much was made about the extremely low fumble rates of the Patriots, leading many to speculate or conclude that their potentially deflated footballs were responsible. See FiveThirtyEight for a general summary of the arguments.

In any case, the 2015 season makes for an excellent out-of-sample test with respect to New England's fumble tendencies. Although the Patriots have been accused of going crazy lengths to gain a winning edge, it seems safe to assume that any suspect ball routine could not have been a part of the game-day preparation process this season. (The NFL implemented new procedures for inspecting game balls.) As a result, if one initially made the link between the Patriots low fumble rates and deflated footballs, the natural follow-up would be to assume that New England's fumble rates would revert toward the league average in 2015.

So what happened in 2015?

• The Patriots had the fewest fumbles of any NFL offense.
• The Patriots had the best fumble rate of any NFL offense.
• The Patriots had one of their best fumble rates of the past decade.

Here's a barplot of each offense's 2015 fumble rate. To match a previous author's chart, I'll use plays per fumble, which means that teams fumbling less often will have higher numbers. (Using the NFL's website, I grabbed the relevant offensive team information—fumbles and number of plays—and subtracted non-offensive team fumbles to ensure that fumbles using the ‘K’ balls weren't counted.)



That's the Patriots on the far right, leading the league while fumbling only once every 105 plays.
There are several explanations for their continued success of hanging on to the ball, none of which have to do with deflated footballs. As explained here, the Patriots have consistently led the league in plays that are associated with low fumble rates, including kneel downs, plays in opponent territory, and plays when holding a lead. Related, the Patriots, Broncos, and Panthers—three teams that went a combined 39-9 in 2015—finished first, fourth and fifth, respectively, in plays per fumble.

A link between low football PSI's and high fumble rates was never established by anyone, so a check of the 2015 data shouldn’t mean much as far as the likelihood of the Patriots cheating. But the information provides a nice confirmation to what Gregory Matthews and I wrote back in January: Statistics is hard, and this can lead to deception, either willful or otherwise.

The idea that the Patriots were a 1 in 16,000 type-of-outlier made for a nice story, and it was quite easy to use aggregated statistics that implicated New England. As often happens, however, there's more to data than meets the eye. In the case of fumble rates, New England has routinely led the league. It's a result that seems more likely to be accounted for by differences in points on the scoreboard, and not by differences in the pressure levels of footballs.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and of course there is the fact that almost all US sports media claimed that the Patriots won games because they cheated, that Tom Brady had good throwing stats because the balls were deflated, and that made it easier to throw and catch.

Yet, the Patriots had the same 12-4 record in 2014, that they had in 2015, and Tom Brady had better stats in 2015, than he did in 2014. Even despite the fact that the Patriots had numerous injuries to their receivers and offensive line during the year.

And one more thing, the NFL refused all season to release the results of the PSI readings that they supposedly took before games, at halftimes of games, and at the ends of games.

The NFL has given no explanation at all as to why none of the PSI readings have been released so far. Neither have any of the major sports media in the US, like CBS Sports, NBC Sports, Sports Illustrated, ESPN, etc. - that all claimed across the board (either through writers, anchors, former players, former coaches, or "analysts") that the Patriots had released air from footballs.
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Old 01-11-2016, 01:43 PM   #133
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

You can easily say Brady is the GOAT.

But if I need to win one game I'm still taking Montana.

And on the final drive I'll do the same.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:05 AM   #134
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

Alot of people who picked Montana in this thread look foolish now. It is pretty obvious by this stage that Montana has no legit argument over Brady.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:25 AM   #135
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Default Re: Joe Montana or Tom Brady? Who ya got?

As for me, I would have neither for GOAT (even though I think that Montana was better).

When these guys started out, neither had a lot of pressure to be the guy to lead a franchise out of the doldrums. Montana was a third-round pick, and Brady was a sixth-rounder.

Now, Walsh eventually expected Joe to start, but nobody thought that he would be the savior. And, while Brady may have become the starter by 2002, there is no guarantee that his career is the same without the 2001 perfect storm.

Both these guys have their GOAT legacies built on SB titles, but those are more of a reflection of the team than the QB. In my opinion, they were players that went to the right team at the right time, and they fit in well with what the coach (Walsh, Belichick) wanted out of their QB. However, in a vacuum, they aren't as good as an Elway, Marino, Peyton, or Unitas. Heck, I don't even think that Brady is as good as the 1994 version of Bledsoe.
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