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Old 04-16-2007, 06:39 AM   #16
Soccer10
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Now, that's a nice counterargument. They played against the Celtics 10 times a year.
Thanks, I didn't know that.

BUT still, it doesn't seem like it was a situation of them only being inferior to the Celtics.
I mean from what I can see, they missed the playoffs altogether 5 seasons. Yes, 5 seasons = no playoffs.
They indeed did get eliminated by the Celtics a few times but they also got eliminated to other teams too that statistically at least seemed so much more inferior.

I mean, look..

This Oscar's team..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1962.html

Lost to this team....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1962.html

and Oscar's third best player had better stats than the Pistons number 1 player...

How can a team like the 1962 Cincinnati lose to the 1962 Pistons? Statistically, makes no sense..
Only if Oscar missed the whole series it could make some sense...

So, I still stand by what I said.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer10
Now, that's a nice counterargument. They played against the Celtics 10 times a year.
Thanks, I didn't know that.

BUT still, it doesn't seem like it was a situation of them only being inferior to the Celtics.
I mean from what I can see, they missed the playoffs altogether 5 seasons. Yes, 5 seasons = no playoffs.
They indeed did get eliminated by the Celtics a few times but they also got eliminated to other teams too that statistically at least seemed so much more inferior.

I mean, look..

This Oscar's team..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1962.html

Lost to this team....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1962.html

and Oscar's third best player had better stats than the Pistons number 1 player...

How can a team like the 1962 Cincinnati lose to the 1962 Pistons? Statistically, makes no sense..
Only if Oscar missed the whole series it could make some sense...

So, I still stand by what I said.


In a few years people won't understand how the Pistons or Spurs won a championship. That's what you getwhen kids think stats win rings.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

^ STHU. I'm clearly not a stat guy. If that was the case, I'd be a fan of Lamar Odom. Nice Loow. Yet you fail again. Ever get sick of that?

That's why I asked if maybe it was the case of him playing with bunch of Lamar Odoms instead of Ben Wallaces, Bruce Bowens and Manu Ginobilies.
If that was the case, I"ll somewhat change my opinion.

Get with the program, will ya?
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
In a few years people won't understand how the Pistons or Spurs won a championship. That's what you getwhen kids think stats win rings.


What's up your ass loot?

One mention of Kobe Bryant, this guy is suddenly a *******.

One mention of stats, this guy is suddenly immature.

Read the posts and show some respect to the objective effort put in. Even though I can hardly ever agree with Christiano here his posts are well researched and valid and sometimes make sense!
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:58 AM   #20
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Offended? Don't worry, if you read again you will see what I said. You're looking at stats all the time. Basketball reference is a stats site.

Go that site and look at the stats for the Spurs and Pistons championship teams. Kids will be asking the same thing you're asking now about those team in, what, 10 or 15 years already. The Pistons had scrappy players who didnt care about stats. They knew their roles. You can't say anything about a team by just looking at the stats, so it makes sense there will be teams who are statistically superior, but who will not win a series against some teams who would appear to be weaker, if you go by stats.

Just take a look at the Lakers squad who even had some trouble with that Detroit team during their series. That was one helluva squad with both great playrs and great stats.

Also, none of the players on that Detroit squad are commonly remembered by 'modern' fans. I doubt a lot of kids will know a lot Billups, Sheed, Ben or Rip 15 years from now. The great individual players tend to be remembered better than players who were on great squads.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethetriangle
What's up your ass loot?

One mention of Kobe Bryant, this guy is suddenly a *******.

One mention of stats, this guy is suddenly immature.

Read the posts and show some respect to the objective effort put in. Even though I can hardly ever agree with Christiano here his posts are well researched and valid and sometimes make sense!

I'm not saying he's immature, I'm saying a lot of kids go by stats because they haven't seen the acutal games. If I hadn't watched old games I wouldn't know anything but stats and stories either.

See the post above.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:12 AM   #22
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

That's funny Loow because that Pistons team finished with a 37-43 record and they allowed more points than they scored..
Hmm, doesn't really sound like a Spurs or a 04 Pistons type of a team, now does it?

So, the only one that's talking out of his ass is you. Because you're the one that doesn't know what you're talking about. You're just assuming.
At least stats are better that assumptions.

And even if they were such a low stat great impact team (which they clearly were not), how do you explain Oscar's team missing playoffs for 5 seasons?

No matter the era, if he's a top 10 player ever he better get his team to the playoffs because many players have singlehandedly lead their teams to the playoffs with probably even less help than Oscar had and aren't considered as better than him.
Yes, Kobe is just one example so please don't say that I have an agenda. This isn't about that.

Oscar's stats were dominant. His teammates had nice looking stats as well.
Yet....5 years = no playoffs. Losing in the first round very often? And not only to the Celtics?

Something's wrong there.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
I'm not saying he's immature, I'm saying a lot of kids go by stats because they haven't seen the acutal games. If I hadn't watched old games I wouldn't know anything but stats and stories either.

See the post above.


Yes but he clearly questioned whether his teammates were actually good or simply "Lamar Odom's" as opposed to players like Ben Wallace. So I still believe that your response was unneccessarily rude.

Also, don't you think that his Kobe argument made sense? I understand that coming from him or me would make us sound like ********. We have the Laker fan curse. But it does make sense when you look at it seriously. A great percentage on this board views Kobe as a 2nd fiddle that could've been replaced by any allstar guard with the same results. Do you not see the correlation?

Look, most of us Laker fans are Kobe fans by default. He plays on our team so we cheer for him. I bet that if 90% of us were given a choice to choose a player to lead our team, it wouldn't be kobe. If he gets traded for Kurt Thomas tomorrow, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about Kobe. He's on our team so we defend him, but only when he deserves to be defended.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:30 AM   #24
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

First; different era, different game. That's why younger (and I'm a younger fan in this case) fans are probably looking at Wilt's rings and doubting his dominance.

You're right about the Pistons and Spurs being more dominant than that Pistons squad. But if you look at the boxscores you won't see much pointing at that dominance. And my point is still valid. You won't hear kids being amazed about those teams because they go by stats mostly. Same for the great Utah Jazz seasons.

You could also take a look at how the Denver Nuggets bounced the Sonics out of the playoffs during their first round matchup in the early 90's. Sonics were even a first placed team.

What did that squad have? Mutombo, Ellis, Ellis, Stith, Abdul Rauf, Pack Reggie Williams. Not something to be amazed at. Still nowadays we all talk about Payton and Kemp. The Sonics made it back to the Finals a few years later.

Still the Nuggets were a much better team during that series. Yet, during the season they were barely a .500 team. Statisically it didn't make sense at all. But they did it.

It's even the same for those early 90's squads. Some of the teams that did well back then wouldn't be so good now. And other teams which played poorly would play quite nice now.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:32 AM   #25
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
Offended? Don't worry, if you read again you will see what I said. You're looking at stats all the time. Basketball reference is a stats site.

Go that site and look at the stats for the Spurs and Pistons championship teams. Kids will be asking the same thing you're asking now about those team in, what, 10 or 15 years already. The Pistons had scrappy players who didnt care about stats. They knew their roles. You can't say anything about a team by just looking at the stats, so it makes sense there will be teams who are statistically superior, but who will not win a series against some teams who would appear to be weaker, if you go by stats.

Just take a look at the Lakers squad who even had some trouble with that Detroit team during their series. That was one helluva squad with both great playrs and great stats.

Also, none of the players on that Detroit squad are commonly remembered by 'modern' fans. I doubt a lot of kids will know a lot Billups, Sheed, Ben or Rip 15 years from now. The great individual players tend to be remembered better than players who were on great squads.


This statement alone explains what Soccer10 is trying to say about Oscar Robertson. I don't know why its so hard for you to understand. He's not disrespecting an era or a great player's legacy, its pure inquiry. Let's respect his curiosity with formidable answers.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:41 AM   #26
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
First; different era, different game. That's why younger (and I'm a younger fan in this case) fans are probably looking at Wilt's rings and doubting his dominance.

You're right about the Pistons and Spurs being more dominant than that Pistons squad. But if you look at the boxscores you won't see much pointing at that dominance. And my point is still valid. You won't hear kids being amazed about those teams because they go by stats mostly. Same for the great Utah Jazz seasons.

You could also take a look at how the Denver Nuggets bounced the Sonics out of the playoffs during their first round matchup in the early 90's. Sonics were even a first placed team.

What did that squad have? Mutombo, Ellis, Ellis, Stith, Abdul Rauf, Pack Reggie Williams. Not something to be amazed at. Still nowadays we all talk about Payton and Kemp. The Sonics made it back to the Finals a few years later.

Still the Nuggets were a much better team during that series. Yet, during the season they were barely a .500 team. Statisically it didn't make sense at all. But they did it.

It's even the same for those early 90's squads. Some of the teams that did well back then wouldn't be so good now. And other teams which played poorly would play quite nice now.


Good point.

Quick question, wouldn't you consider the great Jazz teams heavy on the stats dept?

Also, now that Soccer10 has brought it up, don't you agree that 5 seasons is a bit bizzare? I mean how many players have been left off history because of they're failure to lead their teams. Then again, that era had so much going on whether it be the Cold War, segregation, The Vietnam war, the height of "all you need is love" stage, etc. . Thus, it brought out the best in people in all fields and most specially in sports and music. I guess Oscar's legacy is based on more than just basketball. Not discounting his crazy stats of course.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

^ Why do you talk to Loot like he's someone of knowledge?
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:56 AM   #28
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer10
^ Why do you talk to Loot like he's someone of knowledge?


I suggest you read pages 9 and 10 of the "what's more impressive kobes 17 or nash's 24 thread".

I think Loot is the biggest idiot on this board as 98% of his posts are sarcastic putdowns to threads without actually saying anything about basketball. However, in the top 10 small forward thread and his last post on this thread, I realized that this man has wasted potential as his basketball knowledge is actually pretty okay.

Overall, still one of the biggest insecure losers I have ever come across. Sorry Loot. I'm guessing your ugly.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:00 AM   #29
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Oscar was the first guard to dominate that much from his position and the first (and last) player to get that kind of numbers. Despite the fact that rebounding was overblown in his era, there's no doubt he was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. He was also a very efficient scorer (25.7 ppg on 18.9 shots, 48.5% FG and an almost off-the charts for the era 56.4% TS% for a guard). Not to mention that assists were harder to get back then and, by today's measuring, that he would probably own a few 14-15 asg years, to go with his 30 ppg ones.

Oscar never went to the Finals as a Royal, he did however make the ECF twice and pushed the Celtics to 7 games once. But most of the times he didn't make the playoffs, it was because of the level of competition, which was much bigger than believed:

1961: The Hawks and Lakers were simply better. No wonder he missed the playoffs.
1968: Wilt and Russell are greater than Robertson, Sixers, Celtics and Knicks better as teams. The only drawback is that the Royals weren't at a lower level compared to the Pistons. That seed, however, was judged in the final game and (most importantly) Oscar missed 17 games.
1969: The Royals are simply no match for any of the teams they won more.
1970: The Sixers weren't better than the Royals. Oscar though missed 13 games again.

No, I haven't read any other threads about arguments against Big O (after all, this site isn't exactly known about its plethora of history topics, and there isn't any search engine on it, either), so I'd like to know what you wrote.

Having said that, though, I don't see much evidence that Oscar is greater than Magic, other that Oscar came first and Magic likely copied some of his moves.

Last edited by Psileas : 04-16-2007 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:12 AM   #30
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethetriangle
I suggest you read pages 9 and 10 of the "what's more impressive kobes 17 or nash's 24 thread".

I think Loot is the biggest idiot on this board as 98% of his posts are sarcastic putdowns to threads without actually saying anything about basketball. However, in the top 10 small forward thread and his last post on this thread, I realized that this man has wasted potential as his basketball knowledge is actually pretty okay.

Overall, still one of the biggest insecure losers I have ever come across. Sorry Loot. I'm guessing your ugly.


Thought this was turning out to be quite a nice discussion. You, like Soccer10, seem to be obsessed with the looks of ISH posters. That's not healthy. Neither is it very mature is it?

Anyway, we can go and say all that stuff which has been posted in the other tread or you can try to actually make this a nice tread (like I did). You choose.

It's a shame because the other post you had was on point:

Quote:
Then again, that era had so much going on whether it be the Cold War, segregation, The Vietnam war, the height of "all you need is love" stage, etc. . Thus, it brought out the best in people in all fields and most specially in sports and music.

Could you explain a little more how you think this involves Oscar being overrated?

Last edited by loot : 04-16-2007 at 08:16 AM.
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