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Old 04-16-2007, 07:18 AM   #31
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Sorry Psileas but not very convincing and I usually love reading your posts and most of the time you just own people when it comes to players from the past.

However, I don't find these excuses very valid and convincing. I see it more as just....well, excuses.

Don't want this to turn into a Kobe vs Oscar thread or a bashing Soccer10 thread although I could care less about that one but I'm going to compare his situation to Kobe's once again because his example is the most familiar to me.
In 2005 the Lakers missed the playoffs and that was it. They missed the playoffs. Period. Kobe failed to lead his team to the playoffs.
People didn't care that they were on pace to make the playoffs, people didn't care that Kobe and Odom only played like 40 games together because of all the injuries, they didn't care about the coach quitting, they didn't care that other teams were better.
The fact was that....the Lakers missed the playoffs. Kobe failed to lead them to the playoffs. And that was all there was to it. No excuses, nothing.

So, when you say "The Hawks were a better team" or "Oscar missed 13 games" it just doesn't sound convincing.
Oscar is someone with perhaps 2nd most dominant stats ever behind Wilt and yet he failed to lead his team to the playoffs.....not once, not twice...5 times...and his stats were just from some other dimension or something.

So, I say that doubting Oscar now sounds even more legitimate to me.

Last edited by Soccer10 : 04-16-2007 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:30 AM   #32
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
Oscar was the first guard to dominate that much from his position and the first (and last) player to get that kind of numbers. Despite the fact that rebounding was overblown in his era, there's no doubt he was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. He was also a very efficient scorer (25.7 ppg on 18.9 shots, 48.5% FG and an almost off-the charts for the era 56.4% TS% for a guard). Not to mention that assists were harder to get back then and, by today's measuring, that he would probably own a few 14-15 asg years, to go with his 30 ppg ones.

Oscar never went to the Finals as a Royal, he did however make the ECF twice and pushed the Celtics to 7 games once. But most of the times he didn't make the playoffs, it was because of the level of competition, which was much bigger than believed:

1961: The Hawks and Lakers were simply better. No wonder he missed the playoffs.
1968: Wilt and Russell are greater than Robertson, Sixers, Celtics and Knicks better as teams. The only drawback is that the Royals weren't at a lower level compared to the Pistons. That seed, however, was judged in the final game and (most importantly) Oscar missed 17 games.
1969: The Royals are simply no match for any of the teams they won more.
1970: The Sixers weren't better than the Royals. Oscar though missed 13 games again.

No, I haven't read any other threads about arguments against Big O (after all, this site isn't exactly known about its plethora of history topics, and there isn't any search engine on it, either), so I'd like to know what you wrote.

Having said that, though, I don't see much evidence that Oscar is greater than Magic, other that Oscar came first and Magic likely copied some of his moves.

So Oscar gets a pass for failing to lead his teams to the playoffs because other teams were better? Maybe it's is his fault not making his teammates better? Maybe because he was a ball-hog? Maybe because he choked in pressure situations?

Not saying that's true, but is it entirely out of the realm of possibility? Since when do we excuse great players, of whom some say they are top 5 all time, for playing on bad teams? They're supposed to MAKE them good.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:44 AM   #33
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
Thought this was turning out to be quite a nice discussion. You, like Soccer10, seem to be obsessed with the looks of ISH posters. That's not healthy. Neither is it very mature is it?

Anyway, we can go and say all that stuff which has been posted in the other tread or you can try to actually make this a nice tread (like I did). You choose.


It's a shame because the other post you had was on point:



Could you explain a little more how you think this involves Oscar being overrated?


Look, forums are not supposed to be reflections of how mature or immature one is. It is an outlet for basketball fans to talk basketball and say whatever the **** they want on the side since no one can actually legitimately get hurt. Which is exactly why I don't complain about your "racist" comments because its obvious that you don't really mean any of that. You, however, make a mockery of good discussion by making taking minucule parts out of good lengthy threads and mixing them with absolutely out of context sarcasm without actually replying to what it says about the topic. You made this a nice thread? All you did with Soccer10's post was take what you conveniently didn't like to hear such as Kobe's name and blow it out of proportion in your next response. What was wrong in him using stats as a basis? It is the sole objective form of comparison that we possess and it accounts for a good portion of the argument.


This line didn't mean to state Oscar as overrated. Overrated is too strong a word for someone that has almost been unanimously listed as a top 10er so i'm not going to question it. But now that Soccer10 has delivered on some facts that I have never cared to look into (as I accepted his greatness with his tripledouble seasons alone), its beginning to seem interesting as to why Oscar was rated this high. Back to your question, have you ever heard of the saying diplomacy no longer allows heroes to exist? Its somewhat like that. Oscar made a name for himself not only in the light of basketball but also with his different off-court occurences. Similar to Ali (although not comparing the magnitude of their influence), Oscar's greatness may be a sum of everything he did on and off the court.

Last edited by lovethetriangle : 04-16-2007 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:49 AM   #34
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Oscar Robertson is not overrated if he is overrated how come that in today's game their is no player who ever came so close of averaging a triple double this season.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:52 AM   #35
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethetriangle
This line didn't mean to state Oscar as overrated. Overrated is too strong a word for someone that has almost been unanimously listed as a top 10er so i'm not going to question it. But now that Soccer10 has delivered on some facts that I have never cared to look into (as I accepted his greatness with his tripledouble seasons alone), its beginning to seem interesting as to why Oscar was rated this high. Back to your question, have you ever heard of the saying diplomacy no longer allows heroes to exist? Its somewhat like that. Oscar made a name for himself not only in the light of basketball but also with his different off-court occurences. Similar to Ali (although not comparing the magnitude of their influence), Oscar's greatness may be a sum of everything he did on and off the court.

I knwo you don't neccisarily agree with Oscar being overrated, but that's what the tread is about.

In response to:
"Oscar's greatness may be a sum of everything he did on and off the court."

Well, that's what I said in my first post in this tread. You're on point, but it's not like it hasn't been said before. You can laugh all you want and troll with posts like the one I quoted above, but fact is, you're just saying the same thing I said, only less informative and factual.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
So Oscar gets a pass for failing to lead his teams to the playoffs because other teams were better? Maybe it's is his fault not making his teammates better? Maybe because he was a ball-hog? Maybe because he choked in pressure situations?

Not saying that's true, but is it entirely out of the realm of possibility? Since when do we excuse great players, of whom some say they are top 5 all time, for playing on bad teams? They're supposed to MAKE them good.


This is a very simple point that says a whole lot about how we rate people in their field of work.

We (including me) rate Oscar as high as he has been rated because it has become a given. It has become fact that he is top 5 or top 10, no questions asked. With players now a days such as Kobe or Iverson, we are given the chance to magnify their careers while also subconsciously subjecting them based on how we view them as people (this is not necessarily true just how I think it has worked). Therefore, I believe that players of this era will never be able to get that "pass".
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:03 AM   #37
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethetriangle

We (including me) rate Oscar as high as he has been rated because it has become a given. .

There's no way I will ever agree with that concept but it's true. Some things just become a given. No matter how right or wrong they are. People just accept them and move on. It's like it's written into stone.
And no one will ever even look into it.

It's a similiar thing in politics. One dude who was glorified as a hero was always bad in my mind because some things were horrible but he was a hero to everyone. However, slowly but surely people are starting to see what he really was about. Definitely not a hero.

Not many things are ever a given but it's a natural order of things I guess.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:10 AM   #38
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovethetriangle
With players now a days such as Kobe or Iverson, we are given the chance to magnify their careers while also subconsciously subjecting them based on how we view them as people (this is not necessarily true just how I think it has worked). Therefore, I believe that players of this era will never be able to get that "pass".

Why wouldn't they? Oscar has been an active player too. Everything which is being said about Kobe and Iverson now, couldve been said about Oscar and Wilt. I don't know about them 'never' getting a pass.
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:22 AM   #39
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Don't want this to turn into a Kobe vs Oscar thread or a bashing Soccer10 thread although I could care less about that one but I'm going to compare his situation to Kobe's once again because his example is the most familiar to me.
In 2005 the Lakers missed the playoffs and that was it. They missed the playoffs. Period. Kobe failed to lead his team to the playoffs.
People didn't care that they were on pace to make the playoffs, people didn't care that Kobe and Odom only played like 40 games together because of all the injuries, they didn't care about the coach quitting, they didn't care that other teams were better.
The fact was that....the Lakers missed the playoffs. Kobe failed to lead them to the playoffs. And that was all there was to it. No excuses, nothing.

So, when you say "The Hawks were a better team" or "Oscar missed 13 games" it just doesn't sound convincing.
Oscar is someone with perhaps 2nd most dominant stats ever behind Wilt and yet he failed to lead his team to the playoffs.....not once, not twice...5 times...and his stats were just from some other dimension or something.

There are many different types of mentalities. Some people just look at the result (=the Lakers/Royals lost the playoffs, that's it), others try to find reasons or even excuses for that.
The problem with Kobe is that he has so many irrational fans that they'll find any possible excuse in order to justify his failures. But he also has so many haterz (I use this writing, because the original word seems to be censored) that simple facts sound like bitter excuses to their ears. Did Kobe/Lamar play little with each other in 2005? Yes. Is this a good reason to justify Kobe missing the playoffs? Up to you. My point with Oscar was that missing the playoffs or having only little playoff success is for me something which can be explained without using the "bad leadership" argument. After all, very few know exactly what type of a leader Oscar was. I've read opinions of people who said he was a ballhog, while others said he had the same will to win as Russell or West. Probably both were true, but I don't know which truth is "stronger".
That's not to say he didn't have underperformances, like in the 1966 ECS, where he only shot 40.8% in FG. But I'll generally say that Oscar's teams would not overperform. And that's why he's not a very strong GOAT candidate for me, despite his significance to the game.

Quote:
So Oscar gets a pass for failing to lead his teams to the playoffs because other teams were better? Maybe it's is his fault not making his teammates better? Maybe because he was a ball-hog? Maybe because he choked in pressure situations?

Not saying that's true, but is it entirely out of the realm of possibility? Since when do we excuse great players, of whom some say they are top 5 all time, for playing on bad teams? They're supposed to MAKE them good.

Like I said, not enough evidence of what exactly he did, and that's something I hate. But it's a general rule for superstars to be excused for the failures of their teams. Jordan was excused, for example, in 1989 for the failure to beat the Pistons. Isn't it a fact that the Pistons were a better team? Or was Jordan not a great leader? Larry Bird had his own share of playoff underperformances, but everyone just remembers the "leader Bird". Oscar had his own failures and, if we somehow take excusing team leaders after failures as a rule, this rule should, to an extend, apply for Oscar, as well.

And yes, I know that the main difference between Jordan/Bird and Oscar are the rings as the leaders of the team, and thats why I rank both of them above Oscar (and so do most fans).
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Old 04-16-2007, 08:36 AM   #40
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

I think this just proves how unfairly Kobe is judged in the context of history. But aight, nuff of my gr00pie talk.

But you see Psileas..when it comes to Jordan and Bird, positives outweight the negatives. Which cannot be said about Oscar as far as his team succes goes.
Jordan and Bird both have many rings, have been great leaders and we can excuse them for a failure or two because as much as they failed, they've succeded twice as much, if not more.
Again, not the case with Oscar.
And if we're going by the Kobe standards (guess more gr00pie talk) then Oscar's ring really doesn't hold that muich weight either as he had what seems to be a lesser role than Kobe and at that, I think statistics actually sell Kobe's contributions short during those title years.

So really, Jordan and Bird have done so much.
Let's just say that if Jordan and Bird ever missed the playoffs, it'd be considered an anomaly because they always did so well and yes, I understand what kind of teammates Bird always had.
However, in Oscar's case...seems like far more often than not, failure is what happened...

I know that it will now look like I'm trying to trash Oscar just to glorify Kobe but it isn't the case. Just the best example.
But since guy is such a taboo topic, I already see what's coming.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:02 AM   #41
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

ok this is the stupidest thread ive ever seen.
oscar robertson averaged a tripple double over a season.
trust me he wasnt overrated.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:24 AM   #42
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
I'm not saying he's immature, I'm saying a lot of kids go by stats because they haven't seen the acutal games. If I hadn't watched old games I wouldn't know anything but stats and stories either.

See the post above.

I would agree with most of what you said throughout, but you are dealing with Soccer10. You will be unable to have a rational conversation on this subject.



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Old 04-16-2007, 09:33 AM   #43
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
I knwo you don't neccisarily agree with Oscar being overrated, but that's what the tread is about.

In response to:
"Oscar's greatness may be a sum of everything he did on and off the court."

Well, that's what I said in my first post in this tread. You're on point, but it's not like it hasn't been said before. You can laugh all you want and troll with posts like the one I quoted above, but fact is, you're just saying the same thing I said, only less informative and factual.


I'm explicitly agreeing with you in that statement. Is that not clear?

Why do you have to go out and accuse me of plagiarism?

Also, why do you say that it has nothing to do with this thread? This thread is about Oscar's legacy and place in history. It questions whether he was overrated. Thus, the respective period in history that his era played out is one that stands out and may have played a role in setting his legacy. So I absolutely believe that this has a whole lot to do with the thread.

I agree with you in the sense that Oscar may be up there because of basketball and things beyond basketball. However, with regard to the Kobe comparisons of Soccer10, I believe them as absolutely valid even though I anticipate being hanged for it.

I ask you Loot, what do you really feel about this Kobe standard in the light of Oscar? I'm genuinely interested to know what you think with regard to this.

And to those that are bashing people that question Oscar, I request you to either read some of the posts or explain your pleas.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:37 AM   #44
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalMike
I would agree with most of what you said throughout, but you are dealing with Soccer10. You will be unable to have a rational conversation on this subject.





I must disagree on this one Socal, although he may have been over the top in the past, soccer might actually have some good points for this particular topic.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:49 AM   #45
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Default Re: So, was Oscar Robertson overrated?

what's the point of this thread? doesn't looks like you wanted to hear other people's opinion.

more like you wanted to affirm that big O was overrated, judging by what you've read and will defend that stance no matter what.

but guess what, overrated or not, that is something you will only be able to judge if you watch him play, watching some game footage. other than that, what you read is what you read, and that will never tell you the whole story.
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