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Old 04-18-2007, 01:10 AM   #31
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
No Kobe isn't a Top-5 player because he's not good enough! That's simple.

Way to take things out of context but the FACT is that Oscar gets tons of credit for 1 championship in a lesser role while Kobe won nothing without Shaq.

That's the way people look at it.

Other players - wow, they've won the championship, they're awesome.
Kobe - Couldn't do it without Shaq.

I'd almost call it a natural human instinct. Whatever Kobe does, try to spin it in a negative way and take it away from him.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:14 AM   #32
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Glove_20
Oscar is in the 7-9 range.
Kobe is not even close to there.


Oscar is retired
Kobe is 28


A lot of players get appreciated for their careers after they retire

Kobe is between 20-25 thats not that far off.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:15 AM   #33
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by CristianoVirtuos
Way to take things out of context but the FACT is that Oscar gets tons of credit for 1 championship in a lesser role while Kobe won nothing without Shaq.

That's the way people look at it.

Other players - wow, they've won the championship, they're awesome.
Kobe - Couldn't do it without Shaq.

I'd almost call it a natural human instinct. Whatever Kobe does, try to spin it in a negative way and take it away from him.

I don't think they're trying to take qway from him, I think there is serious doubt. A truly great player is one who makes those around him better. After Shaq won another ring (of course he had D-Wade, but that's a different topic), people began to wonder if Kobe was just along for the ride in the good ol days (well not good for me, cause the Spurs weren't winning).
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Younggrease
Kobe is between 20-25 thats not that far off.

Yeah but the higher you go, the harder it becomes to move up. Someone in the 45-50 range could move up to the 30's by winning back to back titles, but Someone in the top ten might move one spot under the same circumstances.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:18 AM   #35
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by dejordan
this is a stupid comparison. bird was a point forward who did pretty much everything incredibly well at the offensive end, was a natural leader, and one of the best rebounders from the small forward position ever. kobe is a shooting guard with unbelievable scoring skills and great athleticism. if you want to compare them, it's not very fair to kobe, who had much less responsibility early in his career and much worse teammates later in his career. i mean even without looking it up i'm sure bird's got better career numbers in probably just about every category and a better career winning percentage. but that doesn't tell the whole story because like i said, when kobe was on a good team he wasn't the main man, and now that he is the main man, his team's not that good.

I think that's WAY too unfair to Kobe, your general stance because I?ve read that in some more topics.
I've noticed that you're unbiased so this shouldn't be a problem but you're underestimating his role on the Lakers championship team.

Yes, Bird was a superior rebounder/passer/playmaker but it's not like you make it sound. You make it sound like Kobe is Ben Gordon with Kobe's scoring ability, basically.

Yes, he is one of the greatest scorers of all time but he's also much more than that.
All those defensive teams, pretty much great all around skills etc.

I mean look, his role in the triangle with Shaq......

Kobe was the initiator. Don't undervalue that. It's a very important role and hard to play because you really need to be able to control the game. It's not just passing it to Shaq or an open guy.

And people also act like Kobe wasn't doing that much offensively when he in fact he was.

He still averaged a lot of points, like let's round it to 25 and that's a lot of points..

Not only that, who was the guy taking shots in crunch time?

Kobe.

So it's not like he had a small role.

He was a 25 ppg scorer, the initiator of the offense, a defender, a go to guy in clutch etc..
Those are some huges roles.

People just take those Kobe's rings for granted.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by CristianoVirtuos
Way to take things out of context but the FACT is that Oscar gets tons of credit for 1 championship in a lesser role while Kobe won nothing without Shaq.

That's the way people look at it.

Other players - wow, they've won the championship, they're awesome.
Kobe - Couldn't do it without Shaq.

I'd almost call it a natural human instinct. Whatever Kobe does, try to spin it in a negative way and take it away from him.

I'm not one that discredits Kobe's rings becuase anyone who watched that 3 peat saw how vital Kobe was to that title team. I think that people who discredit Kobe for those rings do so becuase they feel he "ran" Shaq out of LA and that he wanted to be the man so people judge his career accomplishments based on what he's done as "The Man" of a team. Either way, it really is ludicris to take away what Kobe's accomplished becuase of the way that LA dynasty ended.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:19 AM   #37
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
Yeah but the higher you go, the harder it becomes to move up. Someone in the 45-50 range could move up to the 30's by winning back to back titles, but Someone in the top ten might move one spot under the same circumstances.

Nobody doubts Jerry West for only winning one ship and he did it with Wilt winning finals MVP...

From now on i'll just have to call West a coat tail rider because he obviously couldnt get it down without a player just as dominant as Shaq.

So that pretty much means if Kobe wins a title as #1 he is pretty much without a doubt the #2 sg of all time.

Last edited by Younggrease : 04-18-2007 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:20 AM   #38
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by MaxFly
That's just Larry's competitive streak on display. If Bryant did the same, I don't think anyone would bash him for that.

you're kidding right? People were bashing Kobe for dropping 60, 50 points against teams with poor records (like he had anything to do with the opposition's win-less record).
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:24 AM   #39
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Younggrease
Nobody doubts Jerry West for only winning one ship and he did it with Wilt winning finals MVP...

From now on i'll just have to call West a coat tail rider because he obviously couldnt get it down without a player just as dominant as Shaq.

So that pretty much means if Kobe wins a title as #1 he is pretty much without a doubt the #2 sg of all time.

Well two things

1. Wilt wasn't averaging 293587629387598 points a game anymore, he accepted a role, which was to rape anyone who dared challenge the paint.

2. What's that have to do with what I said?
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:24 AM   #40
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
I don't think they're trying to take qway from him, I think there is serious doubt. A truly great player is one who makes those around him better. After Shaq won another ring (of course he had D-Wade, but that's a different topic), people began to wonder if Kobe was just along for the ride in the good ol days (well not good for me, cause the Spurs weren't winning).

First of all, Kobe was getting his rings taken away from him long before Shaq won his 4th.

Second, if that's the standard and it should be, why isn't Oscar questioned as much as Kobe? Which makes him that much greater? What makes you say that he indeed does make those around him better? Missing the playoffs 5 out of 10 times don't realy speak in his favor now does it?


Double standards are so obvious that it's ridiculous.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:26 AM   #41
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by CristianoVirtuos
First of all, Kobe was getting his rings taken away from him long before Shaq won his 4th.

Second, if that's the standard and it should be, why isn't Oscar questioned as much as Kobe? Which makes him that much greater? What makes you say that he indeed does make those around him better? Missing the playoffs 5 out of 10 times don't realy speak in his favor now does it?


Double standards are so obvious that it's ridiculous.

See "So is Oscar overrated" topic floating around in the forum. You'll see good cases from both sides.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:27 AM   #42
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Poseidon
you're kidding right? People were bashing Kobe for dropping 60, 50 points against teams with poor records (like he had anything to do with the opposition's win-less record).

Just a little sarcasm... I was around when people were bashing Bryant for the 81.

Incidentally, while Bird's game was a bit gratuitous at points, I don't find anything inherently wrong with his going for the record.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:30 AM   #43
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
Well two things

1. Wilt wasn't averaging 293587629387598 points a game anymore, he accepted a role, which was to rape anyone who dared challenge the paint.

2. What's that have to do with what I said?

its a double standard, Wilt still was the finals MVP not West. Will you take credit away from West for his only Championship like you do for Kobe????

He sill averaged 15 and 20 will requiring a double ever time he touched the ball. The same as Shaq, he just shared the burden with two great scorers.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:32 AM   #44
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
See "So is Oscar overrated" topic floating around in the forum. You'll see good cases from both sides.

Tell me there aren't double standards. Tell it with a straight face.

Tell me that Kobe's accomplishments aren't minimized by most people, tell me that it's fair how people take things away from him and tell me that he gets fair treatmant in comparisons with other legends?

Oscar is a terrific example. Somewhat, so is Bird.
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Old 04-18-2007, 01:33 AM   #45
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Default Re: Kobe gets hated for this Bird doesn't??

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Originally Posted by MaxFly
Just a little sarcasm... I was around when people were bashing Bryant for the 81.

Incidentally, while Bird's game was a bit gratuitous at points, I don't find anything inherently wrong with his going for the record.

Kobe is the only dude who can get hated on for not going for a record....than get hated on the next month for doing what they asked for a month ago....and it is by the same people. I remember Jay Mariotti doing it and wished someone would call him on it.
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