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Old 09-10-2018, 02:21 PM   #991
PejaTheSerbSnip
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Default Re: The Tennis Discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
No one is saying a slam isn't a slam, but the majority of his wins come from one tournament. Two thirds of his wins are at one slam. He isn't as dominant as Federer or Djokovic as a all around player. He isn't better than them overall.

Nadal only has two slam wins outside of the French since 2010. Both at the US Open. Two in 8 years.
Novak has 9 outside of his most dominant tournament; the Australian Open.
Federer who has apparently been old and done for a while according to some has the same as Nadal away from Wimbledon, his favourite tournament.

Novak in reality is the best to ever do it. Best year in tennis. Highest peak. Winning record over both players. Came into the sport and had to take titles of the two GOATS at the time. Fed came in against no dominant players. Nadal had to learn to beat Fed. It all just swings into Djoker's favour aside from totality of titles which doesn't matter really considering the amount they've all amassed, and factoring in what they came into.


Some good and salient points here, but the part about Novak having the best peak is debatable. Best one year peak, maybe, but what about 4/5 year peak? Federer won 11/16 majors from 2004-2007, 34/49 titles. Djokovic has never come close to that. He lost a lot of winnable slam matches against winnable opponents (Murray 2012 US Open who won that tournament mostly on grit, 2014/16 USO where neither Nishi or Wawa played that well, Querrey W2016, etc) plus threw in some questionable performances at the 2015 FO, 2014 AO (lumped in with their other epics but in reality it was lower quality than 2013 AO/USO) and 2013 W. All against players that even an older Federer owned pretty comprehensively in big matches. Djokovic could go on awe-inspiring runs but the wealth of bad losses in majors (which Federer was immune to from 2004-2008, his only head-scratching loss was to a resurgent Guga in 2004) makes the claim that his multi-year peak was better specious.

2015 was the most accomplished season since Lavers CYGS, but replace him with Federer from 2004-2006 and does the latter perform much worse? Hard to see how. Federer in 2006 holds his own against any player in history except Nadal on clay (and contrary to some conventional beliefs, Nadal’s best four year period on clay was 2005-2008 without any question.) Without Nadal as a boner-kill on the dirt he has no obstacles to speak of, except for an older/declined version of himself and a Murray that said older version owned that year. And make no mistake about it, 2015 Djokovic would be the underdog against Nadal 2006 on clay just as Federer was.

Rafa went 109-2 on clay from MC 2005 to the end of 2008, winning 57% of his points, with a 1.44 dominance ratio. The two losses? Against Federer on a lower-bouncing clay court when he was dead-tired, and Ferrero in Rome '08 when his foot was mangled with blisters. Highlights include winning something like 17 out of 18 tournaments on clay at one point in that period, and only dropping one out of 43 possible sets in the 2007/08 French Opens. There is no other four-year period of his that was better that you can point to. And even if you limit it to 2006, it is worth noting that Nadal had amassed about 60+ clay wins in a row by the end of that year, something even the best versions of Fedkovic could only dream of.


At the end of the day I have no gripes with anybody saying Djokovic had the best 12-18 month peak (even though I think even that is very debatable), but Federer had the better 5 year peak and also is comfortably ahead in career achievements.

Last edited by PejaTheSerbSnip : 09-10-2018 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:15 PM   #992
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Default Re: The Tennis Discussion thread

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Originally Posted by PejaTheSerbSnip
Some good and salient points here, but the part about Novak having the best peak is debatable. Best one year peak, maybe, but what about 4/5 year peak? Federer won 11/16 majors from 2004-2007, 34/49 titles. Djokovic has never come close to that. He lost a lot of winnable slam matches against winnable opponents (Murray 2012 US Open who won that tournament mostly on grit, 2014/16 USO where neither Nishi or Wawa played that well, Querrey W2016, etc) plus threw in some questionable performances at the 2015 FO, 2014 AO (lumped in with their other epics but in reality it was lower quality than 2013 AO/USO) and 2013 W. All against players that even an older Federer owned pretty comprehensively in big matches. Djokovic could go on awe-inspiring runs but the wealth of bad losses in majors (which Federer was immune to from 2004-2008, his only head-scratching loss was to a resurgent Guga in 2004) makes the claim that his multi-year peak was better specious.


The field was weak as hell when Federer was dominating in 2004-2007. That's pretty common knowledge.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:20 PM   #993
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Default Re: The Tennis Discussion thread

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Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater
Pretty weak slam win for Djok, but the draw made it possible.

If anything, this confirmed he's slightly below Rafa/Fed.

vs Nishikori 16W 29UE
vs Millman 30W 53UE
vs Sousa 23W 18UE
vs Gasquet 31W 25UE
vs Sandgren 31W 30UE
vs Fucsovic 30W 32UE

The luxury of having 5 straight gimmies cannot be underestimated.

Quite improportionate for him to end this season with 2 slams

His Wimbledon tournament was GOAT straight to finish though, one tiny miny hiccup in the QF 2nd set, that was it.

The downer to him winning is you get delusional clowns like plowking and smoke out of the wood works again.

The irony of this statement coming from a complete Rafa fanboy. Hilarious. Djokovic clearly has an argument over Nadal as far as who is better all time and only a fanboy would disagree with that.
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Old 09-10-2018, 05:46 PM   #994
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Default Re: The Tennis Discussion thread

Nole will at least tie federers #20 if he remains focused.
Whats there to stop him!?
A bunch of mugs like cilic/zverev/coric
Nadal wont beat at outside of clay thats clear.
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Old 09-10-2018, 06:32 PM   #995
PejaTheSerbSnip
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Default Re: The Tennis Discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Smoke117
The field was weak as hell when Federer was dominating in 2004-2007. That's pretty common knowledge.

2004, 2005 and 2007 were good years. 2006 was a weak year, but it still featured the greatest single-surface player in his prime on his surface. Nadal on clay in ‘06 is quite clearly better than any opponent on any surface that Djokovic has to contend with in ‘15.

Would love to know how 2007 in particular was weak. The 2007 field was better than the field in any year from 2013-2016. Federer and Nadal were both at or near their peaks (see here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...16;08.617472/), Djokovic was on the rise, other contenders like Roddick, Murray, Ferrer were in the mix, Nalbandian had one of the best indoor seasons of all time, Gonzalez had one of the best AO campaigns in recent memory (certainly better than Murray’s 2011/13/15 AO’s) etc.

But even if I were to grant you this for the sake of convenience, the fact is that Federer lost 5 times in 4 years in the majors. Put Djokovic in Federer’s position, does he win 11 times in 16 attempts? Well, he almost certainly wasn’t going to beat Nadal at RG, who lost once from MC 05-end of 07 on clay. So that’s 3 attempts that are a write-off..if I’m being charitable, lets give Djokovic 1 of those 3 years.

That leaves us with 13 majors left, with Djokovic having to win 10 to match Federer, 11 to surpass him. Given all of the winnable matches he lost from 2011-2015 (to players that, once again, have been owned by even an older Federer), his struggles in NYC, and the fact that the courts were quicker back then (Rebound Ace was faster than plexi, the old USO courts are faster as well), I don’t think that would be a sure thing at all. In fact I think it would be rather unlikely. The flip side to Djokovic having such an extraordinarily high peak level was that he very clearly could not sustain it as often as Federer, hence the many inexplicable losses in majors even in his peak years.

I think Djokovic is at best equal to Federer at their peaks. I do agree that both reached a higher apex than Nadal, though.

Last edited by PejaTheSerbSnip : 09-10-2018 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 09-10-2018, 09:51 PM   #996
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Default Re: The Tennis Discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater
Pretty weak slam win for Djok, but the draw made it possible.

If anything, this confirmed he's slightly below Rafa/Fed.

vs Nishikori 16W 29UE
vs Millman 30W 53UE
vs Sousa 23W 18UE
vs Gasquet 31W 25UE
vs Sandgren 31W 30UE
vs Fucsovic 30W 32UE

The luxury of having 5 straight gimmies cannot be underestimated.

Quite improportionate for him to end this season with 2 slams

His Wimbledon tournament was GOAT straight to finish though, one tiny miny hiccup in the QF 2nd set, that was it.

The downer to him winning is you get delusional clowns like plowking and smoke out of the wood works again.

Not gonna lie. my boy did have an easy draw. However, Rafa at last year's USO probably had it a little easier. The toughest single opponent between the two runs is this year's Delpo. Anyways, this tournament is the first slam win for Novak where he didn't beat anyone from the big four.

The winners to unforced errors doesn't tell the whole story. How many errors did Nole force from Delpo? When Nole returns a 130 mph serve within inches of the baseline at the opponent's feet, it doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
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Old 09-10-2018, 10:01 PM   #997
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Default Re: The Tennis Discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankok8
Not gonna lie. my boy did have an easy draw. However, Rafa at last year's USO probably had it a little easier. The toughest single opponent between the two runs is this year's Delpo. Anyways, this tournament is the first slam win for Novak where he didn't beat anyone from the big four.

The winners to unforced errors doesn't tell the whole story. How many errors did Nole force from Delpo? When Nole returns a 130 mph serve within inches of the baseline at the opponent's feet, it doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

His entire post was sour grapes. Of course he can't just congratulate Djokovic for another great accomplishment in his career, but has to try and tear him down to prop up his boy. He's pathetic. He doesn't even realize that if Nadal didn't get "injured" he'd probably have been whooped by Djokovic anyway as Nadal has looked vulnerable all tournament while Djoker has just been cruising. He should be happy Nadal had one of his famous "injury retirements" as Djokovic would have just shown another time why he's greater all time as he straight setted him.
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