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Old 01-22-2016, 04:32 AM   #16
3ball
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Hawk

#1 criteria should be how high was a player's on court impact.

that's why I have Olajuwon comfortably in the Top5

3-peat to 2nd Round and back to 3-peat is the GOAT impact...

Heck, if we wanted to confirm MJ's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd have him come back and 3-peat again while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

Also, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact..
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Jordan's team won every series where Pippen played poorly - in those series, Jordan simply carried the team and didn't worry about Pippen.

[I]But anytime Jordan needed Pippen to play well to win the series, he made sure Pippen was playing well[/i].

There was only a ONE game where Scottie's poor performance caused the Bulls to lose, and Jordan was helpless to do anything about it - this was Pippen's epic choke in Game 7 of ECF (1-10 for 2 points), where Pippen admitted the pressure got to him.. Not much MJ could do about that.

How about when the team carried Jordan in the 5-19 performance?
Can you imagine Bron's Cavaliers beating a 66 win team like the Sonics, or say the GSW with Bron shooting 5-19?

Or how about his massive choke in 98 against the Pacers in game 7? 9/25 and down almost the whole game? Thankfully Kukoc and Kerr are there to hit the big shots and carry him to victory.


All this bullshit talk about MJ being on a whole other level mentally, and his will to win needs to stop. Like anyone who has ever played sports, you realise a lot of it is up to you, but then there is being the winner of circumstance and chance, and those are all the things that came together for MJ in a way that didn't for many others.

MJ is no better a player than Shaq or Wilt or Lebron. Those 4 in all likelihood are probably the best basketball players ever. If one is better than the other, it isn't because of some BS, arbitrary standard you hold them to. 2/6 for Bron? Who cares. 1/9 for West? Who cares. Is West any worse a player because he lost 8 times? Clearly he is good enough to compete on the biggest stage every time.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:36 AM   #18
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
3-peat to 2nd Round and back to 3-peat is the GOAT impact...

Heck, if we wanted to confirm MJ's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd have him come back and 3-peat again while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

Also, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact..
'06-'10 Cav's and '09 Heat would've been in the lottery as well. Wade and LeBron... GOAT level impact.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
3-peat to 2nd Round and back to 3-peat is the GOAT impact...

Heck, if we wanted to confirm MJ's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd have him come back and 3-peat again while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.

Also, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact..

Wrong. Olajuwon had a higher impact than Jordan.

1994 Finals. Olajuwon's second best player was Vernon Maxwell. His stats were:

13/3/3 on .365 FG%

That was the SECOND best player. Olajuwon still managed to beat the Ewing's, Starks', Oakley's, Mason's Knicks.

Jordan never did that
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

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Originally Posted by aj1987
'06-'10 Cav's and '09 Heat would've been in the lottery as well. Wade and LeBron... GOAT level impact.

Boosting a lotto team to an early playoff exit team is nothing to brag about. There has been countless players with this ability.

What makes a player special is the ability to make a good team one of the greatest of all time.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:40 AM   #21
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Jordan shoots 47% TS against 61 win Miami team. No worries guys, series is over with a 4-1 win despite Jordan taking such a large number of shots too.

He made sure his teammates played well and carried him.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:44 AM   #22
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by warriorfan
Boosting a lotto team to an early playoff exit team is nothing to brag about. There has been countless players with this ability.

What makes a player special is the ability to make a good team one of the greatest of all time.


Please stop posting, dude.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
Jordan shoots 47% TS against 61 win Miami team. No worries guys, series is over with a 4-1 win despite Jordan taking such a large number of shots too.

He made sure his teammates played well and carried him.

You are right he should of played LeBron ball and went for only 3 pointers and lay ups, saving his TS%, losing the series, and then still able to fall back and say "not enough help."

Genius.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:51 AM   #24
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by warriorfan
You are right he should of played LeBron ball and went for only 3 pointers and lay ups, saving his TS%, losing the series, and then still able to fall back and say "not enough help."

Genius.
So, what about the last Finals? Don't you constantly bitch about it like you're on your period?
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

How about when the team carried Jordan in the 5-19 performance in game 6 of 1996 Finals?

In addition to Jordan's 22/9/7 in Game 6, he carried the team defensively - he held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than Hawkins RS average and Finals average through 5 games.

Otoh, all the other Bulls let their man go OFF - Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 53% shooting... Rodman let Kemp get 18/14 on 47%... Payton went off for 19/7 on 70% shooting... Everyone got destroyed EXCEPT Jordan - Jordan held his man to 12 points below his average, and the Bulls won by 12.

Meanwhile, Lebron can't even stop role players from being > Duncan (2014 Finals) or Curry (2015 Finals).


Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

Can you imagine Bron's Cavaliers beating a 66 win team like the Sonics, or say the GSW with Bron shooting 5-19?

MJ can do that because he carried his team defensively - and also, his style allows teammates to play well offensively alongside him.

Otoh, Lebron's defense is shit, and his teammates play like shit in the reduced play-finishing roles he imposes on them..

That's why he lost as a big favorite to Dwight's Magic, even though he averaged a career-high 39 ppg (sidenote: MJ had 6 series where he averaged over 40 ppg).


Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

Or how about his massive choke in 98 against the Pacers in game 7? 9/25 and down almost the whole game? Thankfully Kukoc and Kerr are there to hit the big shots and carry him to victory.

29/9/8 with all the big plays down the stretch is a massive choke?

That's the best you can do?... That's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly.
.

Last edited by 3ball : 01-22-2016 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:06 AM   #26
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
In addition to Jordan's 22/9/7 in Game 6, he carried the team defensively - he held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than Hawkins RS average and Finals average through 5 games.

Otoh, all the other Bulls let their man go OFF - Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 53% shooting... Rodman let Kemp get 18/14 on 47%... Payton went off for 19/7 on 70% shooting... Everyone got destroyed EXCEPT Jordan - Jordan held his man to 12 points below his average, and the Bulls won by 12.

Meanwhile, Lebron can't even stop role players from being > Duncan (2014 Finals) or Curry (2015 Finals).
Battier was defending Kawhi most of the time and Delly was on Curry. It's so easy to flip your logic on you. Scottie shut down Hawkins. MJ let Schrempf and Payton run a train on him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
MJ can do that because he carried his team defensively - and also, his style allows teammates to play well offensively alongside him.
Nope. Pippen was a better defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
That's why he lost as a big favorite to Dwight's Magic, even though he averaged a career-high 39 ppg (MJ had 6 series where he averaged over 40 mpg).
And yet, when MJ loses, his teammates as horrible. When LeBron loses, he choked.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

This is really my first criteria. Whats use of better stats if he cant fit? Thats the spurs philosophy. Thats why im no fan of the westbrook, iverson, bran. They fill the statsheet but that style cant fit in a team concept. Thats why these guys have impacts lesser than their stats suggest. And some of them are even considered cancers by teammates. I prefer players like jordan, durant who are off-ball scorers or magic/isiah/cp3 who are pure pgs. Because you can still add players to them to make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Meanwhile bran is a finished product. You cant add a player to fit with him. You cant add a durant/cp3 coz they are rendered useless.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:21 AM   #28
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987

Battier was defending Kawhi most of the time and Delly was on Curry. It's so easy to flip your logic on you. Scottie shut down Hawkins. MJ let Schrempf and Payton run a train on him.

Except you're lying and I'm telling the truth.

We aren't playing games with "logic" that you can "flip around" - we're stating facts here.. MJ didn't guard Schrempf or Payton in Game 6... He guarded Hawkins.

Now in Game 3 and Game 5, MJ was the primary defender on Payton - that's well-documented and common knowledge (click the links).

But not Game 6... In Game 6, Phil went back to the matchups he started the series with - SG vs. SG - MJ vs. Hawkins.
.

Last edited by 3ball : 01-22-2016 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:28 AM   #29
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Except you're lying and I'm telling the truth.

We aren't playing games with "logic" that you can "flip around" - we're stating facts here.. MJ didn't guard Schrempf or Payton in Game 6... He guarded Hawkins.

Now in Game 3 and Game 5, MJ was the primary defender on Payton - that's well-documented and common knowledge (click the links).

But not Game 6... In Game 6, Phil went back to the matchups he started the series with - SG vs. SG - MJ vs. Hawkins.
Prove it.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:41 AM   #30
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
Prove it.
You think it's hard to prove dumbass?

I'm about to very easily... Sit tight
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