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Old 01-22-2016, 05:48 AM   #31
aj1987
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
You think it's hard to prove dumbass?

I'm about to very easily... Sit tight
Yep. Show me where LeBron was guarding Curry/Kawhi for large stretches of the game and that MJ guarded Hawkins for the entire game.

BTW, Pippen scored 17/8/5 with 4 steals in that game and Rodman 9/19/5 with 3 steals and a block. Are you also gonna tell me that MJ shutdown Perkins?
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:13 AM   #32
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

.
Here's Game 3 where Jordan is the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Payton and matched up with him from tip-off - Marv Albert says it right before the first possession HERE (Bill Walton reiterates it too), and here's the first possession of the game, showing Jordan on Payton:






This is Game 5, where Jordan is the primary defender on Payton again - here's game footage, showing Jordan guarding Payton from tip-off, and here's the first possession of the game showing Jordan is matched up with Payton:






Here's Game 6, where Jordan is the primary defender on Hawkins, while PG Harper is back on PG Payton, and SF Pippen is on SF Schrempf:






So there you go - Jordan held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than his RS average and his average thru 5 games if Finals.

Meanwhile, Pippen was raped by Schrempf for 23 points on 53%... Payton killed Harper for 19 points on 70%... And Kemp destroyed Rodman for 18/14 on 47% (23/10 on 63.3 ts for series)..

Jordan CARRIED them defensively in Game 6 - he was the only guy who locked his man down, while Pip, Rodman and Harper's assignments had huge games.. And of course, MJ still led the team on offense as always, with 22/9/7.. That's how the Bulls won Game 6.

.

Last edited by 3ball : 01-22-2016 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:17 AM   #33
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
.
Here's Game 3 where Jordan is the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Payton and matched up with him from tip-off - Marv Albert says it right before the first possession HERE (Bill Walton reiterates it too), and here's the first possession of the game, showing Jordan on Payton:

This is Game 5, where Jordan is the primary defender on Payton again - here's game footage, showing Jordan guarding Payton from tip-off, and here's the first possession of the game showing Jordan is matched up with Payton:

Here's Game 6, where Jordan is the primary defender on Hawkins, while PG Harper is back on PG Payton, and SF Pippen is on SF Schrempf:

So there you go - Jordan held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than his RS average and his average thru 5 games if Finals.

Meanwhile, Pippen was raped by Schrempf for 23 points on 53%... Payton killed Harper for 19 points on 70%... And Kemp destroyed Rodman for 18/14 on 47% (23/10 on 63.3 ts for series)..

Jordan CARRIED them defensively in Game 6 - he was the only guy who locked his man down, while Pip, Rodman and Harper's assignments had huge games.. And of course, MJ still led the team on offense as always, with 22/9/7.. That's how the Bulls won Game 6.

.
You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.

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Old 01-22-2016, 06:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

How about when the team carried Jordan in the 5-19 performance in game 6 of 1996 Finals?

In addition to Jordan's 22/9/7 in Game 6, he carried the team defensively - he held Hawkins to 2-6 for 4 points, which was 12 points less than Hawkins RS average and Finals average through 5 games.

Otoh, all the other Bulls let their man go OFF - Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 53% shooting... Rodman let Kemp get 18/14 on 47%... Payton went off for 19/7 on 70% shooting... Everyone got destroyed EXCEPT Jordan - Jordan held his man to 12 points below his average, and the Bulls won by 12.

Meanwhile, Lebron can't even stop role players from being > Duncan (2014 Finals) or Curry (2015 Finals).


Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

Can you imagine Bron's Cavaliers beating a 66 win team like the Sonics, or say the GSW with Bron shooting 5-19?

MJ can do that because he carried his team defensively - and also, his style allows teammates to play well offensively alongside him.

Otoh, Lebron's defense is shit, and his teammates play like shit in the reduced play-finishing roles he imposes on them..

That's why he lost as a big favorite to Dwight's Magic, even though he averaged a career-high 39 ppg (sidenote: MJ had 6 series where he averaged over 40 ppg).


Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

Or how about his massive choke in 98 against the Pacers in game 7? 9/25 and down almost the whole game? Thankfully Kukoc and Kerr are there to hit the big shots and carry him to victory.

29/9/8 with all the big plays down the stretch is a massive choke?

That's the best you can do?... That's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:18 AM   #35
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987

You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.

Jordan was the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Hawkins in Game 6 - this is indisputable fact - look at the footage - it's all there.

Btw, that's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly... Lebron has 10 point, 8 point and 7 point playoff games - obviously, ALL LOSSES.

so yeah, the previous post that responded to plowking stands...
.

Last edited by 3ball : 01-22-2016 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:26 AM   #36
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Jordan was the PRIMARY DEFENDER on Hawkins in Game 6 - this is indisputable fact - look at the footage - it's all there.

Btw, that's the problem with trying to single out Jordan's worst games - his worst games are FAR better than everyone else's worst games, and he has far less OF them.

Should we compare 28/9/8 or 22/9/7 plus carrying the team defensively to Lebron's worst games?... There's no way you want to do that - it's a pointless exercise that you will lose very badly... Lebron has 10 point, 8 point and 7 point playoff games - obviously, ALL LOSSES.

so yeah, the previous post that responded to plowking stands...
.
If being this delusional helps you sleep better, then sure.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:32 AM   #37
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
If being this delusional helps you sleep better, then sure.
Translation of your post: you posted facts and proved your point and I have nothing

#whiteflag
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:34 AM   #38
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Translation of your post: you posted facts and proved your point and I have nothing

#whiteflag
You're retarded and delusional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.

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Old 01-22-2016, 06:52 AM   #39
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987

You literally posted ONE gif from game 6 and that's not even the entire play.



Jordan was Hawkins' primary defender in Game 6.. The fact that you're denying it even though I provided the footage makes you immature.
.

Last edited by 3ball : 01-22-2016 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:56 AM   #40
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Are you retarded?... Watch the game

Jordan was Hawkins' primary defender in Game 6.. The fact that you're denying it makes you immature.
I'm not denying it, you cum dumpster. You said you would prove it and I want you to prove it. You posted a single random gif like the faggot you are. Don't have the time to watch a 90 minute game just for a couple of plays. Unlike you, I have a life.
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Old 01-22-2016, 07:00 AM   #41
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
I'm not denying it, you cum dumpster. You said you would prove it and I want you to prove it. You posted a single random gif like the faggot you are. Don't have the time to watch a 90 minute game just for a couple of plays. Unlike you, I have a life.

Meltdown.
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Old 01-22-2016, 07:09 AM   #42
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

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Originally Posted by TommyGriffin
Meltdown.
Right on cue. As soon as warriorfan signed out, you appear.
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Old 01-22-2016, 07:32 AM   #43
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

Bulls without Jordan - 55 wins

That's nothing - they were 3-peat champions with 3-peat know-how and execution on both sides of the ball..

Imagine if the Warriors win championship the next two years, giving them a 3-peat - if Curry retires in 2018, the Warriors win 55 easily..

But ultimately, the regular season is exhibition compared to the playoffs - so the Warriors would still lose in the playoffs, probably the 2nd Round, just like the Bulls did.

The Bulls were an ordinary 2nd Round team without Jordan, and a 3-peat dynasty with him.. If we wanted to verify Jordan's 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, we'd ask him to comeback and 3-peat again, while winning MVP's the whole way.... Done and Done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking

MJ's impact on bad teams wasn't elite

MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would've missed 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8/54%.

So the Bulls would've been lottery heading into 1990, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting first 3-peat.. Again, that's the GOAT impact.
.

Last edited by 3ball : 01-22-2016 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 08:43 AM   #44
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

EVERY team that Lebron joined IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY, and EVERY team he left fell off the cliff.

Furthermore, his Heat went 47-18 WITHOUT Wade!

And when he joined the Cavs last season, they not only went from a 33-49 team to a 53-29 team...without Lebron, they were 3-10, and with him, 50-19! Oh, his former Heat team...they added Deng and Whiteside, and fell to 37-45.

Then he took a roster FAR worse than what Jordan had in his '87 choke job against the crumbling Celtics and was SWEPT...to single-handedly winning TWO games, and nearly TWO more...against an All-time great 67-15 Warrior team. With JR Screwball Smith as his second best player.

Also, MJ NEVER beat a great team. Hell, in the watered down 90's, Hakeem and role players were winning titles. Ewing's Knicks had no more talent than Hakeem's either.

Jordan never had a winning record without Pippen. Nor was remotely close to a title without Pippen and Grant/Rodman (two ELITE PFs.)

AND, when MJ left the Bulls after '93, a 55-27 team that came within ONE PLAY of beating the 56-26 Knicks in six games. The same NY team that would lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. Hell, had Pippen and Grant not missed a whopping 22 games, they would have had HCA edge throughout the playoffs, and may very well have won a title without Jordan. Think about that...the '94 Bulls basically replaced Jordan with PETE MYERS, and nearly won a title.

Lebron's TEAM impact was considerably greater than Jordan's.

Give MJ a very good supporting cast, and in a weak era, and he would win titles. I would even say that if both Lebron and MJ had very good supporting casts, that MJ would outplay Lebron enough to beat him. But, give them mediocre or average rosters, and Lebron would take them further.



All FACTS.

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 01-22-2016 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 09:45 AM   #45
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBonner
I think its mutual thing bud. MJ wasn't winning anything before him



You thought wrong then!

I'll tell you a secret though, Lebron hasn't elevated any teammate. Where is Boobie Gibson and Damon Jones at to name a few? These guys got tainted with Lebron ball and it ruined their outlook on the sport.
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