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Old 01-22-2016, 12:42 PM   #61
ShawkFactory
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.
Like...literally destroyed.

I hope, with things like this, that more people can start to realize that he is nothing but an agenda driven troll
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Old 01-22-2016, 12:44 PM   #62
tmacattack33
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
You always tell us how poor Scottie played, and how little help MJ has.

Like Scottie shooting 35% and only scoring 15ppg against the Sonics. Not to mention calling it the WOAT help, and giving a numerous amount of other examples.

So I guess we can say that Jordan isn't in that category and made his teammates significantly worse.



I shoulda just quoted this post instead of posting my own reply to this thread.

Ethered.
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Old 01-22-2016, 12:46 PM   #63
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawkFactory
Like...literally destroyed.

I hope, with things like this, that more people can start to realize that he is nothing but an agenda driven troll

...if they haven't realized that by now then they never will. The only difference between his post now and when he came onto ish a little less than a year ago is he now makes insecure threads hating on Lebron and Curry to go along with his Jordan dick sucking ones.
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Old 01-22-2016, 01:55 PM   #64
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

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Originally Posted by DavisIsMyUniBro
I prefer to look at SRS when determining team success in teh regular season (has the best correlation with playoff success in my research, nearly 50% of the teams with the highest SRS won the championship post 1980)

the bulls SRS did drop a good bit post Jordan, but it was still the SRS of a 49-51 win team.

Look, no one would seriously claim that the '94 Bulls were a great team. I do tend to exaggerate that team, only to dismiss 3ball's nonsense about how little help he had.

But, a couple of points. The '94 Bulls had Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. Given their 55-27 record, I think that, had they been healthy, they likely would have won 60. Which would have given them HCA against both the 56-26 Knicks, and then the 58-24 Rockets (had they gotten that far.)

Still, had they had MJ in '94, they would have waltzed to a title. I'm not so sure about '95, given that they didn't have a premier PF. But, we saw what happened when they added HOFer Rodman. Three more titles.

In any case, MJ had the most stacked supporting casts in the watered down 90's. NONE of the teams in that decade were particularly overly talented. Most all of them had no more than two great players, and in most cases, only one.

Again, look at the '94 Knicks and Rockets. Each team had one great player, and a bunch of role players. The '96 Sonics, the '97 and '98 Jazz were not much more talented, either.
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Old 01-22-2016, 01:59 PM   #65
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Look, no one would seriously claim that the '94 Bulls were a great team. I do tend to exaggerate that team, only to dismiss 3ball's nonsense about how little help he had.

But, a couple of points. The '94 Bulls had Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. Given their 55-27 record, I think that, had they been healthy, they likely would have won 60. Which would have given them HCA against both the 56-26 Knicks, and then the 58-24 Rockets (had they gotten that far.)

Still, had they had MJ in '94, they would have waltzed to a title. I'm not so sure about '95, given that they didn't have a premier PF. But, we saw what happened when they added HOFer Rodman. Three more titles.

In any case, MJ had the most stacked supporting casts in the watered down 90's. NONE of the teams in that decade were particularly overly talented. Most all of them had no more than two great players, and in most cases, only one.

Again, look at the '94 Knicks and Rockets. Each team had one great player, and a bunch of role players. The '96 Sonics, the '97 and '98 Jazz were not much more talented, either.

Oh, yeah, I totally agree.

Just saying though.

Also, its 3 am and im literally struggling to type right now lol
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:01 PM   #66
ClipperRevival
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Look, no one would seriously claim that the '94 Bulls were a great team. I do tend to exaggerate that team, only to dismiss 3ball's nonsense about how little help he had.

But, a couple of points. The '94 Bulls had Pippen and Grant missing a combined 22 games. Given their 55-27 record, I think that, had they been healthy, they likely would have won 60. Which would have given them HCA against both the 56-26 Knicks, and then the 58-24 Rockets (had they gotten that far.)

Still, had they had MJ in '94, they would have waltzed to a title. I'm not so sure about '95, given that they didn't have a premier PF. But, we saw what happened when they added HOFer Rodman. Three more titles.

In any case, MJ had the most stacked supporting casts in the watered down 90's. NONE of the teams in that decade were particularly overly talented. Most all of them had no more than two great players, and in most cases, only one.

Again, look at the '94 Knicks and Rockets. Each team had one great player, and a bunch of role players. The '96 Sonics, the '97 and '98 Jazz were not much more talented, either.

It really pisses you off that MJ went 6/6 and "Ilt" aka "The Big Dipper" failed when it mattered most huh? That's why you have a need to completely degrade MJ's accomplishments huh?

I could easily DESTROY this thread but it's not worthy my time. I don't want to see pages and pages of Ilt's individual numbers and the same excuses.
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:28 PM   #67
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Default Re: #1 criteria for evaluating players - ELEVATING TEAMMATES

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Originally Posted by ClipperRevival
It really pisses you off that MJ went 6/6 and "Ilt" aka "The Big Dipper" failed when it mattered most huh? That's why you have a need to completely degrade MJ's accomplishments huh?

I could easily DESTROY this thread but it's not worthy my time. I don't want to see pages and pages of Ilt's individual numbers and the same excuses.

I have MJ at #2, and behind Wilt. Most will have MJ above Chamberlain (and most will not have seen enough of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, et al, to make an educated opinion.)

But, these daily "Lebron bashing" topics are ridiculous.

I'm supposed to believe that MJ could have taken the pathetic cast of clowns that Lebron had in '07, or in '14, or in '15...to titles...

when MJ couldn't past the first round with as much surrounding talent as Lebron had in those years? And please, don't give me Wade. He was a broken down shell in '14 (and Bosh, as always, was completely worthless.)

Just look at the '15 Finals. Lebron's second best teammate (at least the guy who took the second most shots) was JR Smith, who was FAR worse than MJ's second best player (Oakley) in his '87 series against the Celtics. And let's get real here. The '87 Celtics were already on the decline, and would get routed by the Lakers in the Finals. On the flip side, we are now coming to see that the '15 Warriors may have been an all-time great team.

And yet, MJ couldn't sniff a win against that 59 win Boston team...and on the other side, Lebron single-handedly won TWO games, and nearly two more against a 67 win Warrior team.

I'll give MJ 2011....IF, he would have just assumed the leader role, unlike Lebron, who deferred to Wade.

No way in hell does MJ win in '07, '14, or '15. There is NOTHING in his post-season career that suggests that he would have.

And before Goofball brings up '96 thru '98...there were articles claiming that Pippen should have won the FMVP in '98, and Rodman in '96. Now, whether anyone agrees or not...did we see anyone proclaiming that JR was a FMVP candidate? And we KNOW that Pippen and Rodman (and Grant) always brought all-world defense. Lebron's casts in '14 and '15 were complete bystanders (Bosh made an old Duncan look like a prime Shaq, and when Spolestra realized that he couldn't defend anyone in the post, he moved him to the perimeter, where he stood by in amusement and watched the Spurs shooting uncontested 3pt shots.)

It amazes me that MJ won three titles from '96 thru '98, shooting .415, .455, and .427 from the field (and had Karl put Payton on MJ in game one of the '96 Finals, instead of game four, who knows how that series would have turned out?) Yep...MJ was single-handedly carrying those rosters to titles, all while shooting 5-19 in a clinching game win. BTW, I love how Goofball claims that it was MJ's DEFENSE on Hersey Hawkins that won that series. Yep, he dominated a Hawkins who averaged 15 ppg in the regular season, and 12 ppg in the post-season. No doubt, THAT was the key to winning that series. No mention of Payton castrating Jordan in the last three games, though...with REAL world-class defense.

Last edited by LAZERUSS : 01-22-2016 at 03:07 PM.
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