Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Chicago Bulls Forum

Chicago Bulls Forum Chicago Bulls message board - chicago bulls fan forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2006, 12:03 PM   #1
Heilige
An Icon Forever
 
Heilige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: location,location
Posts: 3,388
Default Michael Jordan.....GOAT?

Alot of people think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. I think it can be debateable. For those that think he is the GOAT, though, why do you think he is better than these following players:



1. Larry Bird


2. Magic Johnson


3. Wilt Chamberlin


4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


5. Bill Russsell


Loki, I don't mind if you go into a long dissertation saying why you think he is better than those players. Actually, I hope you do! I always love reading your stuff!
Heilige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 12:33 PM   #2
Psileas
College superstar
 
Psileas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Great!
Posts: 4,942
Default

Of course it's debatable. There's a player who dominated more (Wilt, the GOAT for me) and a player who won more titles as the best player of his team (Russell). If you add NCAA, HS career, Kareem also emerges in the mix (maybe even victorious).
Psileas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 12:39 PM   #3
theinfamousmobb
Local High School Star
 
theinfamousmobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 551
Default

Cuz most people watched Jordan, almost no one watched Wilt and such players play thus they cant really speak about them.
theinfamousmobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 12:42 PM   #4
Psileas
College superstar
 
Psileas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Great!
Posts: 4,942
Default

Quote:
Cuz most people watched Jordan, almost no one watched Wilt and such players play thus they cant really speak about them.

True. Especially the SLAM generation, who thinks that Russell today would be another Ben Wallace and Wilt just a 20-10 guy...
Psileas is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 12:58 PM   #5
KWALI
erudite
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,112
Default Legends

Becuz Basketball is a team sport and everything you do is inexorabley tied to your temates there can be no definitive GOAT...well unless there was only one truly great player and everyone else was average but those guys are were it starts and I submit Jerry West should be on that list.....maybe even Mikan and Petit.

Kareem/Lew from HS to NBA is the best player ever....Career wise....ALL time scorer as many MVP's as anyone I know of equal rings with Michael. Has the mix of ALL NBA...Defensive 2nd in BLocks (I know it's not fair to Wilt and Russell but wtill it's there) from POWER to his last NCAA game he lost what 10 games total? Ridiculous.

NBA WISE I think Russell's The top guy then MJ an the rest ..........I think people need to get more footage of Russell....it will dispell this idea he was Ben Wallace.....No such thing...until WILT he was the greatest Athlete to play Basketball and even then he was a close second with WILT there...he Brought shot blocking to the NBA interms of it beaing a weapon......this triggered the first Showtime era.....he took professional basketball into the Air as much as Dr.J and Elgin Did but he started on the D end. Understand though that he could have scored crazy amounts of points on athleticism alone.......he was faster than most SF's Stronger than everyone until WILT came in and he was more coordinated and agile than anyone his size.... when you watch these old films how he moved around guys when he did score...effortlessly..... but overall he dominated teh game mentally he knew what had to be done and did it no matter what it was..passing, scoring rebounding etc...and he realized as a GREAT player you have to step back and let your lesser teamates use their specialty to their fullest and plug in teh teams deficiencies instead of doing what you do best all the time becuz your the best at it....what KB8 (among others) does.....

Anyway Loki run the track
KWALI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 01:12 PM   #6
Thorpesaurous
NBA lottery pick
 
Thorpesaurous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,923
Default

I personally consider these seven players the Mt. Rushmore of basketball:
The Three Centers: Wilt, Russell, Kareem
The Three Modern guys: Bird, Magic, Jordan
and The Guy who fills the books: Oscar.

Of that group, Wilt is the dominant guy, Russell is the winner, and everyone else falls somewhere in between. Magic stands out to me because he's the most unique. I personally feel Bird has the biggest collection of Skills. Oscar is slipping in my mind in spite of his statistical importance, because rebounding was inflated during his era, and he seems a bit of an anomaly. West is rising in my mind, and I usually consider him 8th, but he seems too much like a smaller Bird to me (great shooter, unnatural instincts), so I have problems making a case for him when there's a guy I consider similar that I prefer. Jordan has nearly the team success of Russell, and is closest to Wilt in terms of on court dominance. My problem with Jordan is that of this group, he wouldn't be my first choice, and probably not second or third if I were doing an all-time draft, because he's the hardest of the group to build around. His most impactfull season took place in the post, but it order for him to be there, he requires a center who can funtion away from the post, and without the ball. But those guys are limited, and are generally flawed. It would be easier to build around a traditional post, like Wilt to me. Or start with an all-court guy like Magic or Bird, who can each fill in more gaps, and be successfull in more situations.
Thorpesaurous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 01:34 PM   #7
Knoe Itawl
Bringer of Light
 
Knoe Itawl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,059
Default

I think Jordan is GOAT because he was the best combination of individual and team accomplishments.

Wilt dominated, but didn't win nearly as much.
Russell won, but didn't dominate the game like MJ

Ditto for Magic, Bird, etc. Jordan got his as a 6'6 guard, and without a dominant low post presence. Unheard of in basketball.

So for me, Jordan combines the incredible individual accomplishments plus winning like no other player.
Knoe Itawl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 01:42 PM   #8
kingsfan
Serious playground baller
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 151
Default

He was also commercialized like hell, so it's hardwire into our brain. Plus he had great charisma and has global appeal.
kingsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 02:03 PM   #9
JtotheIzzo
OOOHWEE Cleveland!!!
 
JtotheIzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cavs Bandwagon
Posts: 13,399
Default

I think Bird and Magic are a BIT (this will pi$$ people off), just a little bit, overrated in the GOAT conversation because of the media hype and how good they were for the game.

*that doesn't mean they were not great, I am just saying not GOAT.

Why:
The NBA needed them to be great and the hype machine blew them up. it was actually a match made in heaven that the NBA exploited to its fullest potential:
-Black versus white (a classic intriguing tale right there)
-former college foes (ditto)
-city versus country(ditto)
-East coast versus West coast (ditto)
-Two storied franchises (ditto)
-Two major markets (ditto)
-Two very diferent cities (ditto)
-their style of play and fan base said so much socially it was almost scary, like a microcosm of society.

The NBA was almost dead before these two came so the league did everything they could to make them great. The rivalry was good for business. Hype them up around every corner, they were gonna be the faces of the league and bring it back to life. It was a great time for hoops, and that is why people remember it so fondly.

They were great.

but,
-they had great teams.

I can guarantee you if ISH was around then a whole bunch of jacka$$es would be posting threads saying shyt like : "Dominique Wilkins is better than Bird, if he had McHale and Parrish, the Cs would win every year"
or
"If Alvin Robertson and Magic traded places would the Lakers still win?"

I don't agree with the two above statements but people never really thought about it, it was blasphemy to even discuss it.
With the exception of Houston, Milwaukee and Philly, most teams in the 80s sucked a$$, this never gets mentioned either.

Don't get me wrong they are in the GOAT convo, bu they fall in after:

MJ, Oscar, Wilt, Russell, and DrJ, because I feel they did more with less.
JtotheIzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 02:04 PM   #10
Shepseskaf
Old School
 
Shepseskaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Caribbean
Posts: 5,911
Default

Picking the GOAT, is of course subjective to a certain degree, but to me the discussion should be only about two players -- Kareem and Jordan. I'll declare Kareem the winner simply from a "sustained excellence" standard, in which he displayed an amazing ability to play at a high level for so many years. Admittedly, a center doesn't have as much decision-making pressure as a guard or a playmaking forward, but Kareems overall record still speaks for itself.

In addition, although this isn't a determinative factor in the GOAT discussion, Kareem had to endure the endless hype from his high school years (still regarded as the best NY high school baller ever), whereas Jordan was pretty much anonymous up until the end of his first year at NC.
Shepseskaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 02:06 PM   #11
JtotheIzzo
OOOHWEE Cleveland!!!
 
JtotheIzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cavs Bandwagon
Posts: 13,399
Default

BTW- Dr J played his best ball in the ABA, I know this is an NBA thread, but the leagues merged and I dont think his play there should be undervalued or dismissed.
JtotheIzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 02:11 PM   #12
Thorpesaurous
NBA lottery pick
 
Thorpesaurous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,923
Default

My problem with Doc in any conversation like this is that he's too similar to Jordan, but he's not Jordan. There's another player of his ilk who's (to me anyway), definitively better.
Thorpesaurous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 02:22 PM   #13
JtotheIzzo
OOOHWEE Cleveland!!!
 
JtotheIzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cavs Bandwagon
Posts: 13,399
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorpesaurous
My problem with Doc in any conversation like this is that he's too similar to Jordan, but he's not Jordan. There's another player of his ilk who's (to me anyway), definitively better.

all true, I kinda threw Doc in there to stir things up a bit...I feel he gets overlooked a little too much...that being said he could just as easily drop five spots and it wouldn't really bother me....the trouble is he never got the hype until he was past his prime, everything about him is the 76 ABA dunk contest or that lay up in the early 80s against the Lakers...so much of his gold in between those two plays we don't see because they didn't televise games when he was in his prime.
JtotheIzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 02:39 PM   #14
Loki
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
Alot of people think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. I think it can be debateable. For those that think he is the GOAT, though, why do you think he is better than these following players:



1. Larry Bird


2. Magic Johnson


3. Wilt Chamberlin


4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


5. Bill Russsell


Loki, I don't mind if you go into a long dissertation saying why you think he is better than those players. Actually, I hope you do! I always love reading your stuff!

Rather than explain why I feel that Jordan is the best ever, which would take me quite a while, I'll just do what you asked, which is to state why I think he's better than each of the above players. So here is why Jordan is better, in my opinion, than:


1) Larry Bird: Bird is my second favorite player ever, so I don't want to minimize at all how incredible he was. But Jordan was a far superior defender (yes, even team defense, which was Bird's defensive strength; MJ's edge in team defense over Bird is less than his edge over him in all other defensive areas, however); he was also a significantly better scorer (and I happen to believe that Bird was one of the 2 or 3 most skilled offensive players of the last 20 years, so this isn't a knock on Bird-- Jordan was superior by a good margin, however). Bird has edges in rebounding and passing, but I feel that they're offset by Jordan's edges in scoring and defense. For example, the size of Bird's rebounding advantage over Jordan is approximately the same magnitude as Jordan's advantage over Bird in defense; Bird's edge in passing is probably equal to Jordan's edge in scoring. In terms of clutch play, I'd take Jordan personally, but am willing to concede that it's a wash. Jordan was also the more statistically dominant player overall by a good margin, as measured by EFF or PER.

After that, we have to start looking at things like dominance (over the league), longevity, and awards/accolades. Unfortunately, Bird's prime was cut short by injuries; if it weren't, perhaps this would be a different discussion, but the fact remains that Jordan has 6 rings to Bird's 3 (and before anyone brings up the "weaker era" argument, realize that the superiority of Bird's supporting cast relative to Jordan's more than makes up for any difference in the level of competition imo, if you feel there to be any); he has 5 MVP's to Bird's 3, and 6 Finals MVP's to Bird's 2; Jordan has far more defensive team selections (9 first-team selections as compared with 3 second-team nods for Bird) and more All-NBA first team selections (10 vs. 9) than Bird. Jordan was also unquestionably the best player in the league for nearly a decade whereas with Bird, there were always Magic supporters who maintained that Magic was the better player. No, there was no player in the Jordan era on the level of a Magic Johnson, but you had names like Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Hakeem, Ewing, DRob, and Shaq (many of them in their absolute primes)-- not exactly bad players by any stretch. Jordan's dominance was unquestioned, and, more importantly, it was sustained. This is no fault of Bird's-- after all, he can't be blamed for the caprices of his disks and vertebrae-- but it still matters when measuring a player's legacy.


2) Magic: Jordan was a far superior scorer (spare me the obstreperous cries of "b..b..but Magic could have scored like Jordan if it were asked of him!" No, he couldn't have) and defensive player. Magic had a moderate edge in rebounding and a huge edge in passing. Again, to simplify things, I'd say that Magic's edge in passing was roughly equal to Jordan's edge in scoring (though Jordan was an excellent passer imo), and Magic's edge in rebounding is not nearly as big as Jordan's edge in defense; so Jordan has the overall edge here imo. Jordan was also more clutch (Magic was clutch, to be certain, but most people don't have him in that Jordan/Bird/West category for whatever reason).

Jordan has 6 MVP's to Magic's 3 (say that Magic would have had at least one more if not for Bird and I'll counter that Jordan should have had at least one more in either '89 or '90 over Magic); he has 6 Finals MVP's to Magic's 3; he has 10 All-NBA first team selections to Magic's 9, and 9 defensive first team selections to Magic's none. Jordan has 6 championships to Magic's 5 (and without a player of Kareem's caliber during 3 of those Lakers championships). He was never as dominant over the league as Jordan was-- first there was Bird sharing that dominance, and then, when Bird started to decline in the late 80's, there were at least as many people saying that Jordan was the best player in the league as there were those who claimed that Magic was (from '88 onward).


More than anything, however, I think this quote from Magic Johnson himself sums up the whole issue of Jordan's standing relative to Bird and Magic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Johnson
My best skill was controlling the team and winning. He's a better scorer, has a better everything than I had. Larry (Bird) has said it. We have always said that, both of us. When you know that you're good, you don't have a problem giving it up for somebody else. We both know we dominated in our time. But you ask, were we as good as Michael Jordan? No. He does a little bit more-- does this, does this, does this, better than both of us, and we understand that. We did what we had to do. Nobody can take away his (Bird's) three championships, or my five championships, but we're not sitting here thinking that we were better than Michael Jordan.

And yes, I realize that that's basically an "appeal to authority," and so I don't offer it as rigorous "proof" of anything, really-- I just found it relevant.


I'll do the rest of the players later if I get the chance. This took me longer than I expected.

Last edited by Loki : 07-16-2006 at 02:43 PM.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 02:43 PM   #15
God of BasketBall
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: @Oldschool home insulting him
Posts: 276
Default

Watch him copy and paste what Loki wrote on antoher board so he can get credit and props. Dont do it Loki. I've seen his kind before.
God of BasketBall is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:38 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy