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Old 05-18-2007, 04:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

somebody did his homework.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
Right.

It's got nothing to do with Saudi Arabia giving license to hateful and evil imams that deflect the anger of the populace onto Israel and the United States - or the 39,000 madrassahs teaching hate in Pakistan, and the ones that were teaching hate in Afghanistan. It's got nothing to do with the fact that Islam in the middle east has been at war with western society since its inception. It's got nothing to do with Palestinians sending their children to summer camp to learn how to murder Jews. It's got nothing to do with the fact that Mohammed raped, burned, and pillaged his way across the Arabian Peninsula, and extremists are living out his example. It's got nothing to do with the Islamists' goal of a global caliphate. It's got nothing to do with any of that. It's all our foreign policy.

How wonderfully naive of you.

It also has nothing to do with America supporting dictatorships in the Middle East, overthrowing legitimate governments and supporting the annexation of Palestine.

Frankly, I think you read way too much into the "Clash of Civilizations" nonsense the right-wingers keep throwing around.

Quote:
The 9-11 Commission report detailed how bin Laden had, in 1996, issued "his self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia" and identified that declaration and another in 1998 as part of "a long series" of statements objecting to U.S. military interventions in his native Saudi Arabia in particular and the Middle East in general. Statements from bin Laden and those associated with him prior to 9-11 consistently expressed anger with the U.S. military presence on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israel.

The 9-11 Commission based its assessments on testimony from experts on terrorism and the Middle East. Asked about the motivations of the terrorists, FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald told the commission: "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."

Fitzgerald's was not a lonely voice in the intelligence community.

Michael Scheuer, the former Central Intelligence Agency specialist on bin Laden and al-Qaeda, has objected to simplistic suggestions by President Bush and others that terrorists are motivated by an ill-defined irrational hatred of the United States. "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people," Scheuer said in a CNN interview. "We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live. And there's a huge burden of guilt to be laid at Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, both parties for simply lying to the American people."
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Old 05-18-2007, 05:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
Right.

It's got nothing to do with Saudi Arabia giving license to hateful and evil imams that deflect the anger of the populace onto Israel and the United States - or the 39,000 madrassahs teaching hate in Pakistan, and the ones that were teaching hate in Afghanistan. It's got nothing to do with the fact that Islam in the middle east has been at war with western society since its inception. It's got nothing to do with Palestinians sending their children to summer camp to learn how to murder Jews. It's got nothing to do with the fact that Mohammed raped, burned, and pillaged his way across the Arabian Peninsula, and extremists are living out his example. It's got nothing to do with the Islamists' goal of a global caliphate. It's got nothing to do with any of that. It's all our foreign policy.

How wonderfully naive of you.

Where did I deny any of that being an influence? Nice ad hominem attack to close it up there by the way, how wonderfully Conservative of you.

For the record, I do doubt that 9/11 happens without our unrelenting support of Israel, troops stationed in Saudi Arabian holy land, or our interventions in the Middle East, sans the 1st Gulf War. This was also the only intervention that we actually had International support for. What a wonderful coincidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
I believe that you defeat an enemy by destroying its resources. Islamists resources are impoverished, hopeless youth. By going into Iraq, not only do we correct our own wrongs from yesterday, but we can give those youth hope for a better future. And people with hope don't strap bombs onto their chest.

Pulling out of Iraq would be disastrous, and would indeed fuel the fire already raging.

Bam, that's the answer right there. Terrorists are made, not born. By going into Iraq we have created countless more "resources". These hopeless, angry, impoverished, ignorant youth that are preyed upon by the Islamic Extremists. Molding them into the next batch of suicide bombers and terrorists that believe fighting against us or Israel is akin to resisting the Nazis.

Give hope to Iraqis? It was a good idea on paper, and I was originally pro-war just to depose of Saddam Hussein, but the Bush administration has so catastrophically bungled the handling of the war that many Iraqis are worse off today than they were before. There is no end in sight. While a little progress is being made the killings are as rampant as ever, and if (when) we pull out I fail to see how Iraq will do anything other then dissolve into a spiraling mess of anarchy and violence. That is, more so than it is now.

Islamic Fundamentalists, particularly Imams and Teachers (one and the same in much of the Middle East), spread their fear-mongering hate-based faith much as Christian Fundamentalists do throughout the South and Midwest in America. Ours is a lesser version. Don't kill gays, just deny them civil rights and accept that they'll burn in hell for all eternity.

But hey, we can’t really go into Saudi Arabia and kill tens of thousands of their Holy men for extremist teachings. We can help improve their standard of living and exposure to Western culture. It is again a wonderful coincidence that Egypt, one of the Middle Eastern Nations we most support economically and one with among the highest standards of living, has turned into one of the more moderate Middle Eastern Nations despite having a history of being the most aggressively anti-Israeli and pro-Arab coalition.

I won't bother replying to the rest of your post because you come off as preachy + pretentious but also because I agree with you in many areas. I find it amusing that you assume to know every one of my ideas on foreign policy from a couple of sentences that were more about a presidential candidate then the Middle East.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Update:

I told you how "fair and balanced" Fox News' Michelle Malking and neo-con mouse John Gibson ridiculously tried to spin his stance (that's even backed by the 9/11 commission report) on why the US was attacked.

The false portrayal of Paul, has now, believe it or not, got the attention of GOP leaders calling for his BAN in future debates.

...Yes, that's right; they want to ban him for stating fact... the CIA, FBI, and homeland security FACTS are now apparently, hell bent bannable offenses. The thing is, we live in a country of free speech; it's highly ironic a constitutionlist like Ron Paul ironically is going to be barred for not agreeing with the neo-cons.

Their apparent plan beforehand was to simply make fun of Paul on stage and be praised by Fox News afterwards. But polls like these have shown that true traditionalist republicans are no longer buying it:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/BeSee...pup?id=3135373

Yes, I just took that screen shot. It just proves Paul keeps winning poll, after poll, after poll. At some point, when do people realize he is legit. Obviously, Fox News doesn't; but you must.

Please help Ron Paul and save free speech in the USA. Don't let the USA to fall into complete propaganda. Please, if you want to help protect the constitution, take 15 seconds and sign this petition to the RNC.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Wow, let me go over something real quick:

1. If you think Ron Paul is in anyway or form a "liberal", you simply are a complete dipsh*t. Ron Paul is the definition of a traditional conservative. Heilige, I'm not calling you stupid yet, if you can't get that through your head, you're simply another neo-con that ignores fact.

It's actually pretty funny people today now consider anyone who stands by the constitution a "far left liberal". Anyone who supports free speech? "Must be another wayyyyy leftttttt liberal!" Wake up, people; today's republican party are not true conservatives. True conservatives are supposed to have these values:
  • Small government
  • Non-intervention with foreign affairs
  • Minimal taxes
  • Live by the constitution
  • "People that would give up a little freedom for a little bit of security, deserve neither"

Wow, the Bush administration and the rest of the Neo-con smear jobs at Fox News do.

In fact, Ron Paul is now the only current conservative candidate that even goes by the constitution before making rational decisions. The current GOP claims they are pro small-government. But we know that's not true after national id's, the patriot act, and how they enjoy policing the world. Unlike these neo-cons, Paul actually is pro small-government and should be acknowledged as such.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by reppy
It also has nothing to do with America supporting dictatorships in the Middle East, overthrowing legitimate governments and supporting the annexation of Palestine.

Frankly, I think you read way too much into the "Clash of Civilizations" nonsense the right-wingers keep throwing around.


The concept of Jahiliyya predates the Muslim Brotherhood...before terrorism was even a method or concept.

Try again.


Look up the entry on Qutb on wikipedia, and while you're at it, look at the link to the Jahiliyya article.

Last edited by Heilige : 05-18-2007 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
The 9-11 Commission report detailed how bin Laden had, in 1996, issued "his self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia" and identified that declaration and another in 1998 as part of "a long series" of statements objecting to U.S. military interventions in his native Saudi Arabia in particular and the Middle East in general. Statements from bin Laden and those associated with him prior to 9-11 consistently expressed anger with the U.S. military presence on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israel.

The 9-11 Commission based its assessments on testimony from experts on terrorism and the Middle East. Asked about the motivations of the terrorists, FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald told the commission: "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."

Fitzgerald's was not a lonely voice in the intelligence community.

Michael Scheuer, the former Central Intelligence Agency specialist on bin Laden and al-Qaeda, has objected to simplistic suggestions by President Bush and others that terrorists are motivated by an ill-defined irrational hatred of the United States. "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people," Scheuer said in a CNN interview. "We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live. And there's a huge burden of guilt to be laid at Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, both parties for simply lying to the American people."

And if you believe that is the sole, chief among many, or even a truthful reason given by Al Qaeda, then I've got some prime real estate for you in the Okeefenokee.

Don't believe what a terrorist tells you in publicly-released statements, reppy.

Ever notice how when a terrorist organization achieves one or more of their stated goals, they keep on fighting anyway?

For an individual who thinks for themselves, this indicates that the reasons they gave for fighting were "pretext" i.e. lies to cover an ulterior motive.

Sure, bin Laden wants us out of Saudi Arabia. He hated us long before we were there, and will continue to hate us should we ever leave.

If you think you can give the terrorist what they want and expect them to stop hating you, then you really are hopeless.

Here...enlighten yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

Stop being intellectually lazy. Stop applying an American mentality to a Middle East mindset.

Naivety and ignorance are people such as yourself who don't know the first thing about middle east history, nitpicking one speech OBL gave and trying to somehow surmise from your tiny knowledge the true motivations of the Islamists.

The Islamist movement far outdates Israel or our involvement in the middle east.

Last edited by Heilige : 05-18-2007 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
And if you believe that is the sole, chief among many, or even a truthful reason given by Al Qaeda, then I've got some prime real estate for you in the Okeefenokee.

Don't believe what a terrorist tells you in publicly-released statements, reppy.

Ever notice how when a terrorist organization achieves one or more of their stated goals, they keep on fighting anyway?

For an individual who thinks for themselves, this indicates that the reasons they gave for fighting were "pretext" i.e. lies to cover an ulterior motive.

Sure, bin Laden wants us out of Saudi Arabia. He hated us long before we were there, and will continue to hate us should we ever leave.

If you think you can give the terrorist what they want and expect them to stop hating you, then you really are hopeless.

First of all, no one said it was the sole reason. In fact, no one implied that. But now that you can see it's fact that CIA Bin Laden experts and the 9/11 commission reports agree with Paul, you have to admit how irrational the Giuliani and Fox Nazi attack on him was.

Oh, and Al-Qaeda has hated us for two main reasons:

We're over there
We support Israel no matter what they do; good or horrid
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxNeXuSxX
First of all, no one said it was the sole reason. In fact, no one implied that. But now that you can see it's fact that CIA Bin Laden experts and the 9/11 commission reports agree with Paul, you have to admit how irrational the Giuliani and Fox Nazi attack on him was.

Oh, and Al-Qaeda has hated us for two main reasons:

We're over there
We support Israel no matter what they do; good or horrid


You listen to the made for America tapes that Al-Qaeda caters for us.

I read the roots and ideological books that began the movement.

there is a BIG difference.

do you think its beyond OBL to purposefully feed us BS? Do you think OBL wouldn't use propaganda against us?

I guess that's where you and I are different. I know a terrorist is lying when they are moving their lips. You don't see it that way.

Look up "information operations" as it pertains to the military.

Better yet, why don't we see what the Army has to say about it?

http://usacac.army.mil/CAC/functions/io.asp

Quote:
A key goal of IO is to achieve and maintain an information advantage for US forces and their coalition partners. IO are described as the integrated employment of the core capabilities of electronic warfare (EW), computer network operations (CNO), psychological operations(PSYOP), military deception (MILDEC), and operations security (OPSEC).

So if I were a thinking man (and I am) I'd be thinking, before I believed a word bin Laden had to say, what advantage would the enemy have in me believing what they tell me?

The Islamists' hate predates any of that. Qutb was convinced we were evil after getting a graduate degree in the United States...in the 19040s...before Israel, before we installed the Shah in Iran, before we had a single military base anywhere in the middle east.

He also tried to overthrow Egypt, who was an independent nation since the 1920s. This "throwing off the yoke of the foreign invader" is nonsense. It's about Jahiliyya v Sharia.

Let me put it to you this way. If Qutbists come right out today and declare their intent is to overthrow all secular governments and install a theocracy, you'd see thousands of beheaded Qutbists all over the Middle East before dinner time...most of which would likely be in Saudia Arabia.

If they instead build popularity among people by using the Palestinians as their pawns to generate a constant sore spot with Arabs, and use Israel as the United States as scapegoats for all manner of social and economic ills...well, they build credbility with their resource - people - and simultaneously have a cover for what we all know they want - a global caliphate. This buys them time until they are reasonably certain that their popularity is so overwhelming that not even the House of Saud can stop them, and they have massive Qutbist/Sulafist revolutions all over the place, dragging the middle east thousands of years into the past.

Again, I am not saying our foreign policy was HELPING, but I see the current attitude is a pretext, being used by those who are maniuplating the arab youth. The fact of the matter is that their hatred of us predates anything you just mentioned, and therefore anything you just mentioned CANNOT be all THAT important of a reason for their hate...because they already hated us, long before that.

To me, they're blaming us as a cover and for short-term, practical purposes.

Last edited by Heilige : 05-18-2007 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
Well, that's all nice and good but the "Polls" that Fox took were not scientific at all, God knows how many Liberals were voting. We're looking for a CONSERVATIVE Candidate, not a Liberal dressed like one.


This is just an ignorant statement. Like I said, what does Ron Paul have in common with liberals other than he is pro-constitution (the old "conservative" value)? I'll tell you what, nothing. That's right, nothing. Any one with a brain bigger than the size of a pea should be able to understand he is on the FAR RIGHT, and is actually conservative.

If you think he is "liberal" you just don't understand anything. You lose credibility.

So again, look at that ABC poll I posted, you honestly think Liberals care about Ron Paul to "skew" the vote Paul's 22,500+ to runner up Romney's 361 (all who must be conservative in your eyes). Fact is, it looks like traditionalists are waking up and realizing Paul is the type of candidate that America needs, the real conservative style that this country was founded upon.

Quote:
Point blank, I considered Ron Paul a while back and didn't like what I saw. He is NOT a Conservative by any stretch of the imagination. He is an isolationist that wants us to run away from tough problems and ignore them, HOPING they don't come here. That's not Conservative but more importantly that's irresponsible.

You clearly just don't understand what a conservative is. And if you think policing the world is more responsible than minding our own f*cking business, you're the irresponsible one.

He is not an "isolationist", he's a non-aggressor. He'll stay within the UN and actually make decisions based on evidence, not whim like neo-nazi's like Cheney.

Quote:
After watching the answers from Ron Paul I can firmly state that he's an idiot and will never draw a cent of my money nor can he be counted on for a vote. If he is the Republican candidate at the end of the day, I'll give up and stay home on election day. As much as I won't vote for any of the Democrats that are currently running, neither will I vote for an idiot that refuses to accept life after horses. Things have changed in this world and isolationism was proven ineffective in the 40's. No reason at ALL to think that it will work today.

I feel horrible for you then that you call yourself conservative if this is what you truly believe.

Quote:
We, as in Conservatives, not idiotic isolationist and pro-drug Libertarians.

Oh the drug war, thanks for bringing that in. How much money have we spent on that again? $670 billion a year? $15 trillion total? We are taxed to police victim-less crimes and 95% of this money is to stop the growing of a harmless cannabis plant.

Here's another fact: That isn't a true conservative belief: they're not supposed to tax people to control "substances", especially harmless ones. Do you even know why marijuana was even made illegal in the first place? Nevermind, of course you don't.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

The attitude of "leave me alone"? Yeah, that's wonderful on paper but in reality it fails to work each and every time we try it.

I just don't see Ron as a real Conservative. Conservatives are realistic and not paranoid conspiracy theorists.

There are some issues that he is Conservative on and then there's some where he is no where close. He's a Libertarian, not a Conservative.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Oh the drug war, thanks for bringing that in. How much money have we spent on that again? $670 billion a year? $15 trillion total? We are taxed to police victim-less crimes and 95% of this money is to stop the growing of a harmless cannabis plant.

Here's another fact: That isn't a true conservative belief: they're not supposed to tax people to control "substances", especially harmless ones. Do you even know why marijuana was even made illegal in the first place? Nevermind, of course you don't.


Hundreds of billions?

Drop in the bucket compared to what we waste on social programs and a drop in the bucket compared to what legal drugs would cost us in social programs and increased crime. (Latter part JMO, first part fact)

Makes you wonder how we spend $1.7 TRILLION in "Human Resources" and still have homeless people...Could build 17 million homes a year with that budget.

Want legal drugs? Fine but it has to be accompanied by legislation that makes them RESPONSIBLE for their actions. If they cause problems for one other individual due to the drugs, buh bye...off to prison you go. Violent offenders... life without parole. Drug addicts cannot be trusted in society, legal drugs or not.

Making life difficult for someone else is what drug abusers do and it's pretty severe.

Making life difficult is a reference to stealing from, physical violence, child neglect, etc.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
The attitude of "leave me alone"? Yeah, that's wonderful on paper but in reality it fails to work each and every time we try it.

Worked pretty well before vietnam.

Quote:
I just don't see Ron as a real Conservative. Conservatives are realistic and not paranoid conspiracy theorists.
I'm losing respect for you the further I read. You are now part of the crowd calling him a "conspiracy theorist"?!? Your opinions, as far as I'm concerned. are now null and void because you simply can't get it through your skull he never once implicated Americans caused 9/11.

He's a real conservative. That's fact, what the f*ck are you trying to say? Neocon's are true "conservatives" Policing the world is "conservative" ??

God damn you're just p*ssing me off now.

Quote:
There are some issues that he is Conservative on and then there's some where he is no where close. He's a Libertarian, not a Conservative.

No, he's a classic conservative, that's just perceived as "libertarian & anarchist" by today's standards.

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Old 05-18-2007, 08:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige
Hundreds of billions?

Drop in the bucket compared to what we waste on social programs and a drop in the bucket compared to what legal drugs would cost us in social programs and increased crime. (Latter part JMO, first part fact)

What's so funny about that? so far we've spent 20 billion dollars on investigations alone. Add that to trial costs, time in jail spent, you easily get into the trillions.

Oh yes, and if pot is legalized, sure it makes lot's of sense (not really), that people will instantly start killing each other, right? :rollingeyes: The truth of the matter on this subject is obvious: Crime would go down without the hundreds of thousands of just marijuana cases pending in the USA right now.


Quote:
Makes you wonder how we spend $1.7 TRILLION in "Human Resources" and still have homeless people...Could build 17 million homes a year with that budget.

And there is at least a benefit to that? What's the benefit to me when people are taking away my money and right's to smoke a plant? Right.

Quote:
Want legal drugs? Fine but it has to be accompanied by legislation that makes them RESPONSIBLE for their actions. If they cause problems for one other individual due to the drugs, buh bye...off to prison you go. Violent offenders... life without parole. Drug addicts cannot be trusted in society, legal drugs or not.


This goes without saying, much like alcohol.



Ron Paul is a true conservative, period.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:00 PM   #30
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Heilige has an incredible reputation hereHeilige has an incredible reputation hereHeilige has an incredible reputation hereHeilige has an incredible reputation hereHeilige has an incredible reputation hereHeilige has an incredible reputation hereHeilige has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Important NOTICE: Mainstream Media spin has gone out of control

oh, and about your Ron Paul polls:

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08rep.htm



Never higher than 1%

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