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Old 05-21-2007, 08:01 AM   #1
hotsizzle
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Default I want LO on this team

I've been a long time Odom supporter and that hasn't changed. I really want to keep Odom. I think he can be an amazing championship asset if he isn't relied on to be a 2nd option scorer. He's a great teammate, very unselfish and well rounded, has a lot of heart, and will give you 110% every night. He will give you just about everything with his versatility. Hes not a second option scorer though, hes not a star player...

Of course there are players out there that I would trade Odom for but for the most part, I want him on this team. I have a feeling management would rather trade Odom first then trade Bynum though and that sucks because as a third option, LO would flourish.

Btw, if Stan Van Gundy gets the head coaching job at Indy, its a LOCK that Indy will demand Odom since Van Gundy loves him.

Thoughts? Whats your stance on LO?

Last edited by hotsizzle : 05-21-2007 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

I certainly agree with what you said. There are those that are fickle however, and only measure his effectiveness by the stat sheet.


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Old 05-21-2007, 09:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotsizzle
I've been a long time Odom supporter and that hasn't changed. I really want to keep Odom. I think he can be an amazing championship asset if he isn't relied on to be a 2nd option scorer.

I agree we have to keep Odom and go further saying he can even be the second option, provided that we are able to land other 2-3 good players.
The way the NBA is going to be played, faster and smaller, Odom is turning in a perfect PF with amazing ball handling, range, rebounding and even scoring down low, as he now has height advantage against most of his opponents.
This year we've seen flashes that he can be a 18-20 ppg scorer, that's ok for a n2 option, especially with Kobe being the most productive n1 in the game.
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:36 AM   #4
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Kobe = 20 mil an year
then Lamar is another 13.5 mil

So unless we trade Kwame + Bynum for a 10+ mil 2nd scoring option
Lamar is gonna have to go, and don't get me wrong, I'd love him on the Lakers
only if we were paying him around 9 or 10 mil instead of 13.5
then we wouldn't have to trade him

It's hard to find a 10 mil 2nd option scorer
when we still need to then fill a big man position AND a PG


and keep in mind that in 08
Kobe = 21 mil while LO goes up to 14.5
so taking Sasha off the payroll would be the same of the increase amount of pay roll


LO is getting paid more than what the Lakers can afford for a not 2nd scoring option
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:49 AM   #5
OneWay
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Not this crap again.

I refuse to post on this subject anymore, after this post. Odom is a wrong piece of the puzzle on a Kobe Bryant led team. His only real contribution is rebounding.
There's a decent reason why they went 13-10 without him and beat top teams, because Odom doesn't have enough impact on the team in the first place.
His salary is also huge.
You guys like to excuse him like it's okay that he isn't a 2nd option, like it's okay that he's a tweener, like it's okay that he's passive etc.

I give up here. I see that love is just too strong, it even beats the logic by a long shot.

Where does Odom really help? His versatility is also his achiles' heel.
He scores a bit but doesn't help kobe there as teams don't respect him and throw everything at Kobe so Kobe doesn't have it any easier.
He rebounds well but isn't a post presence so we're still soft defensively.
He passes a bit but isn't good enough to be a full time playmaker.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Kobe and Odom both score their points off the dribble so when Kobe's doing his thing, Lamar is totally out of the game. Ditto the other way around.
Basically in that situation you need Kobe to be the PG, that's the only way they're both successful.
Odom also can't shoot consistantly, especially from mid range which makes him even a worse fit.
When was the last time he and Kobe did the P&R?

Gosh, get a real scorer, someone who gets double teamed. Someone who'd help Kobe get high percentage shots. Imagine those poor frontcourt defensive teams like Suns and Mavs trying to play JO. LOL, they'd need to double him all the time and then Kobe would have it so much easier.
And then just imagine how those teams would struggle offensively with JO in the middle.

Guys, it's obvious that Odom doesn't optimize Kobe. How much more evidence do you need? 34, 45 and 42 not good enough of an evidence for you?
This stat not enough?

Net PER (Player Efficiency Rating)

1.) Ginobili +14.0
2.) Parker +9.5
3.) Billups +7.8
4.) Hamilton +5.8
5.) Prince +4.6
6.) Big Z +4.2
7.) Gooden +2.7
8.) Williams +2.6
9.) Okur +2.4
10.) ODOM -0.0
11.) Hughes -3.6

Odom is exactly what you DON'T want next to Kobe, a passive guy who needs the ball in his hands a lot and is mediocre at everything but great at nothing.

The Odom love affair needs to end. Seriously.

You guys defy logic and common sense because you like him. Look how much he gets paid. Look at how he plays with Kobe. Look at how well they played without him.
He's all wrong. ALL WRONG. He must be gone this summer. Period.

Stop the madness.

The only way I see the Lakers keeping Odom is if they somehow land Artest who doesn't have a big contract along with a few more two way studs who can play both ends of the court.

But if you want real impact, you"ll gladly trade Odom for many, many players in the league. He doesn't have a history of winning, has a bad contract, obviously doesn't impact the game that much and he's a poor fit to Kobe.
The rest of the world has seen this. Why can't you folks look the truth straight in the eyes?
Odom is redudant on the Lakers. Period.
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotsizzle
I've been a long time Odom supporter and that hasn't changed. I really want to keep Odom. I think he can be an amazing championship asset if he isn't relied on to be a 2nd option scorer. He's a great teammate, very unselfish and well rounded, has a lot of heart, and will give you 110% every night. He will give you just about everything with his versatility. Hes not a second option scorer though, hes not a star player...

Of course there are players out there that I would trade Odom for but for the most part, I want him on this team. I have a feeling management would rather trade Odom first then trade Bynum though and that sucks because as a third option, LO would flourish.

Btw, if Stan Van Gundy gets the head coaching job at Indy, its a LOCK that Indy will demand Odom since Van Gundy loves him.

Thoughts? Whats your stance on LO?
couldn't agree with you more people that say otherwise are reading the box scores and not watching the games...
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Old 05-21-2007, 12:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
Net PER (Player Efficiency Rating)

1.) Ginobili +14.0
2.) Parker +9.5
3.) Billups +7.8
4.) Hamilton +5.8
5.) Prince +4.6
6.) Big Z +4.2
7.) Gooden +2.7
8.) Williams +2.6
9.) Okur +2.4
10.) ODOM -0.0
11.) Hughes -3.6

good afternoon oneway, hey where do you find these numbers (what site are you using) and where's kobe on this list?

Last edited by gts : 05-21-2007 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
couldn't agree with you more people that say otherwise are reading the box scores and not watching the games...

I watch all the laker games, and I consistently see Lamar dissapearing. It's not a question if the guy is capable or not. It's more of how do you maximize Lamar's strengths? And can the Lakers afford a 14 million dollar player if he's only our 3rd option?

How many times do we have to sit here frustrated with his play until all of a sudden he attacks the rim almost effortlessly for an easy duce. Nothing is more frustrating then seeing that, seriously. It's almost like 'oh hey, there he is'.

Some people don't want to see Odom go.
Some people don't want to see Walton go.
Some people don't want to see Bynum go.
Some people don't want to see Turiaf go. <-- ME

hopefully we don't end up with the same team.
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:57 PM   #9
SoCalMike
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

What is clear to me, is that with any team, people will debate who belongs and who does not. The reality is that its all opinion for the most part. Change one piece and everything can come together. It just depends on the situation.

I welcome everyone's perspective here as it causes me to think about my own position. So far*, nobody has made a compelling argument to me based on the totality of the information for me to change my opinion.

I am open minded, however.



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Old 05-21-2007, 04:31 PM   #10
hotsizzle
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWay
Not this crap again.

I refuse to post on this subject anymore, after this post. Odom is a wrong piece of the puzzle on a Kobe Bryant led team. His only real contribution is rebounding.
There's a decent reason why they went 13-10 without him and beat top teams, because Odom doesn't have enough impact on the team in the first place.
His salary is also huge.
You guys like to excuse him like it's okay that he isn't a 2nd option, like it's okay that he's a tweener, like it's okay that he's passive etc.

I give up here. I see that love is just too strong, it even beats the logic by a long shot.

Where does Odom really help? His versatility is also his achiles' heel.
He scores a bit but doesn't help kobe there as teams don't respect him and throw everything at Kobe so Kobe doesn't have it any easier.
He rebounds well but isn't a post presence so we're still soft defensively.
He passes a bit but isn't good enough to be a full time playmaker.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Kobe and Odom both score their points off the dribble so when Kobe's doing his thing, Lamar is totally out of the game. Ditto the other way around.
Basically in that situation you need Kobe to be the PG, that's the only way they're both successful.
Odom also can't shoot consistantly, especially from mid range which makes him even a worse fit.
When was the last time he and Kobe did the P&R?

Gosh, get a real scorer, someone who gets double teamed. Someone who'd help Kobe get high percentage shots. Imagine those poor frontcourt defensive teams like Suns and Mavs trying to play JO. LOL, they'd need to double him all the time and then Kobe would have it so much easier.
And then just imagine how those teams would struggle offensively with JO in the middle.

Guys, it's obvious that Odom doesn't optimize Kobe. How much more evidence do you need? 34, 45 and 42 not good enough of an evidence for you?
This stat not enough?

Net PER (Player Efficiency Rating)

1.) Ginobili +14.0
2.) Parker +9.5
3.) Billups +7.8
4.) Hamilton +5.8
5.) Prince +4.6
6.) Big Z +4.2
7.) Gooden +2.7
8.) Williams +2.6
9.) Okur +2.4
10.) ODOM -0.0
11.) Hughes -3.6

Odom is exactly what you DON'T want next to Kobe, a passive guy who needs the ball in his hands a lot and is mediocre at everything but great at nothing.

The Odom love affair needs to end. Seriously.

You guys defy logic and common sense because you like him. Look how much he gets paid. Look at how he plays with Kobe. Look at how well they played without him.
He's all wrong. ALL WRONG. He must be gone this summer. Period.

Stop the madness.

The only way I see the Lakers keeping Odom is if they somehow land Artest who doesn't have a big contract along with a few more two way studs who can play both ends of the court.

But if you want real impact, you"ll gladly trade Odom for many, many players in the league. He doesn't have a history of winning, has a bad contract, obviously doesn't impact the game that much and he's a poor fit to Kobe.
The rest of the world has seen this. Why can't you folks look the truth straight in the eyes?
Odom is redudant on the Lakers. Period.

I'll trade Odom if need be, I don't want the same team next yr by any means but I'd like to try to keep Odom. You say Odom needs the ball in his hands to be effective, theres a plus side to that...he can also create for himself and for others. He plays down low at times and on the perimeter at times. He'll sometimes shoot outside shots and other times, he'll take it to the basket. That has been Odom's game...its never been one distinct role.

I think what you want to see in Odom is a player with a defined role...hes not that player though. He's not like Shard who would come in and give you 20 consistently. Hes not a JO who will come in and play excellent defense and provide post presence. Now, those players are better second options to Kobe than Odom is but doesn't make Odom useless. He can still be an effective player by reducing his responsibility.

Odom is an all around unselfish player, he is not a star player. I think he would flourish as a third option. And thats what I want him as...third option or at least a 2nd second option (i.e. Odom and Artest). A third option that can grab you 10 boards a game, give u 4-5 assists and play anywhere you want him to on the court is pretty damn good.

Our record without Lamar is 12-14 btw. As much as you like to blame Odom for any shortcomings, he was actually one of the few that contributed out there.

I understand we'll probably need to involve Odom if we're getting a JO or Gasol, and if it comes down to that, then so be it but I'm hoping we find a way to keep him while still getting some legit help. Basically, Kobe aside, I'd trade anyone on this team first before Odom

Last edited by hotsizzle : 05-21-2007 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
That has been Odom's game...its never been one distinct role.
Quote:
I think what you want to see in Odom is a player with a defined role...hes not that player though.

Quote:
He's not like Shard who would come in and give you 20 consistently.


Quote:
Hes not a JO who will come in and play excellent defense and provide post presence.

Quote:
Now, those players are better second options to Kobe than Odom

Quote:
He can still be an effective player by reducing his responsibility.

Quote:
Odom is an all around unselfish player, he is not a star player.



You're basically excusing him for every little thing. Every thing this team needs and Odom doesn't provide, it's all fine. Because? Just because he's not a 2nd option, isn't worthy of the money he deserves but would flourish in a reduced role.. Hmmm. You want him because you envision him being better in a smaller reduced role that fits him better.
He's not this, you say it's fine...he's not that... it's fine, again.
Why it's fine?
Because he's who he is? Well, he isn't who we need him to be.
I'm glad that you can see who he is and how useless or misused if you want he is here by being who he is. I'm also glad that you've acknowledged how all those players you've mentioned would be a much better fit.

Basically, you want Odom to be the glue guy. That unselfish just above the role player status who does a bit of everything and is talented enough to make things happen. Basically, you want Odom to be the Diaw of last year on the Suns.

Well guess what, I wouldn't mind that either. He'd be solid in that role.
But guess what more? He makes $13 mill a year.
13.
Kobe's at 20. So is JO. And then you have Odom at 13.
3 players earning over $50 mill a year. It just doesn't work that way.

You need to stop ignoring the contract side because it's there.
If Odom was making $7-10 mil. I wouldn't complain nearly as much but the fact is that he makes just way too much for that REDUCED role you want him to play. You can't just ignore the financial side.

You can excuse him all you want but we need a star player, not a glue guy.
This team isn't good enough to have a glue guy. This team can't run yet. They first need to learn how to walk. They're crawling right now.

Think about the glue guy once you establish the core. That's when glue guys come into play. Odom as a glue guy would be nice but we still don't have a core and Odom makes just way too much to be a glue guy which is a huge downside.

This team needs changes. They need new dynamics. Odom hasn't proven to be effective with Kobe in any role he played so far. It's only a logical solution to trade him and get someone who would fit.

The only way I won't mind to see him stay is if we get Artest who's an underpaid #2 option. Other than that, all second options earn Odom type of money and in every other scenario, he must be gone.

Another thing to consider is Radmanovic's role next year. He was a good player in Seattle, capable of scoring 10-12 ppg.
If he becomes that deadly shooter again he's automatically a better fit than Odom and he"ll require minutes.
Then you want glue guys...get seasoned vets.

And btw, that record IS 13-10. It's a stretch of games that Kobe and Luke played together without Odom. In those other games I suppose Luke was gone too.

Last edited by OneWay : 05-21-2007 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:22 PM   #12
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Take this as an example: Some players that are first options in this league fail at being legit franchise players (JO, Gasol to name a few...they just cant take on that load and be successful)...when they become reduced to second options, all of a sudden, their game becomes more effective because their responsibility is reduced. This is the same case for Odom as a sole second option...if he is to take on a reduced role, he would be more impactful.

It's not an excuse because I'm essentially saying "Odom cannot be a sole second option"...I just don't believe hes a useless player because of that.

Quote:
Basically, you want Odom to be the glue guy. That unselfish just above the role player status who does a bit of everything and is talented enough to make things happen.

Exactly. A star role player or at least a 2nd second option. Lets see those second options in the league.

Spurs? Parker/Manu in a sort of a dual role there
Suns? Amare
Dallas? Howard/Terry..same as spurs
Miami? Shaq
Utah? It depends on what you're looking for but lets say Boozer since Deron spoon feeds him.
Rockets? Yao

Is Odom really on that level?

Lets look at third options.

Suns? Marion
Spurs? they have two very good second option
Dallas? Same as Spurs
Utah? Okur
Rockets? ehhh dont really have a legit one, thats why they failed but lets say Battier

Which group does Odom belong to? It's simple really, we have Kobe and not enough around him. Odom isnt the player Amare, Shaq, and Yao are. And he for damn sure wont provide the impact both Howard and Terry do for Mavs or Parker and Manu do for Spurs.

Its either one of two things:

You have a superstar, another star plus a star role player (Utah, Suns) or you have a superstar plus two very good second options (Spurs, Mavs). Lakers have neither.

As for his contract, its not smart to have a 13 mil third option on this team...its possible to get done though...it would have been the case if Kidd came here so its definitely possible within our cap.

Kobe aside, is there anyone on this team that you want to keep before Odom?

Last edited by hotsizzle : 05-21-2007 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

LO is exactly the kind of guy you want on your team. His only major weakness is that he is not a go-to scorer. He won't take over games (of course, not many players do). Lakers don't need a #2 player. They need a #2 SCORER. If they can obtain such a player without trading LO, then great. If not, then perhaps LO has to go.

It seems to me that we should get everything we need between: a) Kwame's expiring contract, b) Bynum's trade value, and c) the MLE. If not, then perhaps we include LO in a deal for a perennial all-star.

Is LO worth his currently salary (paid the 30th highest in the league)? Debatable.
Is Jermaine Oneil worth HIS current salary (paid 7th highest)?
Not very Debatable... he's not the 7th best player in the league, probably not top 10.
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWay
Where does Odom really help? His versatility is also his achiles' heel.
He scores a bit but doesn't help kobe there as teams don't respect him and throw everything at Kobe so Kobe doesn't have it any easier.
He rebounds well but isn't a post presence so we're still soft defensively.
He passes a bit but isn't good enough to be a full time playmaker.

Jack of all trades, master of none. . .

Gosh, get a real scorer, someone who gets double teamed. Someone who'd help Kobe get high percentage shots. Imagine those poor frontcourt defensive teams like Suns and Mavs trying to play JO. LOL, they'd need to double him all the time and then Kobe would have it so much easier.
And then just imagine how those teams would struggle offensively with JO in the middle.

OneWay makes a solid argument. Although I have been a long time Lamar supporter, I have to admit that his argument is persuasive. Yes, Lamar is a great team player and a great teammate. Yes, he knows the triangle. Yes, he is incredibly versatile. But for $13-14 million, he needs to be more impactful. He needs to compliment what our other players bring to the table. Bottomline, we need more back from our investment.

This is not to say that Lamar isn't worth $13M - he is - just not given the current Lakers' roster (especially since Walton has proved to be a very good facilitator in the offense). That money would be better spent on a real post player or a big time point guard (this is not a knock on LO, but he is really just a tall Shooting forward). Don't forget, Gasol makes less than Lamar!

The real issue has to be about what trades give the Lakers the best chance to contend for a title. What is fortunate is that the Lakers are not that far off, given that we have the players/contracts to pull off several impactful trades. And there are several impactful players on the market.

As much as I like him, I'm okay with trading Lamar, depending on who we are trading him for and how we use our other trade assets (Bynum, Kwame's expiring contract). Speaking of which, I think we can get Bibby AND Gasol without having to give up Lamar. (I'll discuss the details on another thread).
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Old 05-21-2007, 09:57 PM   #15
SoCalMike
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Default Re: I want LO on this team

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLakers
But for $13-14 million, he needs to be more impactful.

I agree with what bleedinpurple said. In addition, lets remember the Lakers did not negotiate LO's contract. He was part of a package to make Shaq's numbers work. So, even though his contract is high, I don't think we can hold that "against" him as part of the arguments. He obviously played at a level that the Heat thought warranted those kinds of dollar figures at the time.




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