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Old 04-20-2017, 02:04 PM   #16
Showtime80'
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

I'm the biggest Lakers fan but Kobe is in the 11-15 range and could be lower, nothing more nothing less!

And LOL at the whole "better difficult shot maker" BS!!!! You want to know why MJ didn't shoot many bad difficult shots, because he had the KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY to AVOID taking difficult shots!!!

Kobe and LeBron both benefit from playing in the "We want to crown the next MJ at all costs" era since they were the ones that stood above the other pretenders but make no mistake about it, mark my words when LeBron goes away he will be victim of the same apathy Kobe has suffered from this last year.

Nobody took the basketball watching public to the zenith MJ did, Bird and Magic came closest and that's one of the reasons they are remembered and revered as they are. Kobe and LeBron are/will be afterthoughts when they went/go away from the hardwood.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Skill was never an issue with Kobe, more about application of skill. Kobe straddled the line between having a great IQ and feel for the game and with some of the shots he would take. Best 'tough' shotmaker is somewhat of a back-handed compliment. MJ took better shots generally and his athletic advantages and better off-ball skillset made scoring easier for him. He didn't need to take some of the shots Kobe had to beat the defense. Doesn't matter much whether Kobe had better handles( product of playing in the and-1 era), MJ got to where he needed to go when he needed to. Kobe was the more prolific range shooter, MJ was overall superior from mid-range, dude shot like 49% on 1500 shots in the midrange area one year.

Ultimately it's about the results on the court. MJ did everything well enough to where you couldn't exploit anything to your advantage.

Last edited by Dragonyeuw : 04-20-2017 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtime80'
I'm the biggest Lakers fan but Kobe is in the 11-15 range and could be lower, nothing more nothing less!

And LOL at the whole "better difficult shot maker" BS!!!! You want to know why MJ didn't shoot many bad difficult shots, because he had the KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY to AVOID taking difficult shots!!!

Kobe and LeBron both benefit from playing in the "We want to crown the next MJ at all costs" era since they were the ones that stood above the other pretenders but make no mistake about it, mark my words when LeBron goes away he will be victim of the same apathy Kobe has suffered from this last year.

Nobody took the basketball watching public to the zenith MJ did, Bird and Magic came closest and that's one of the reasons they are remembered and revered as they are. Kobe and LeBron are/will be afterthoughts when they went/go away from the hardwood.
Make no mistake, MJ had more impact on basketball and around basketball popularity wise than Kobe or LeBron.

But to be fair when Mike walked away, there was no marketable top five all time great still in their prime to carry the torch the way LeBron has ... there was no stacked historically dominant team that captivates people the way we've seen the Warriors the past 3 seasons.

Plus basketball as a whole is in a better place than it was in 1999 - 2004. Also the apathy for Kobe is that he was so polarizing. LA loved him, the vast majority of the rest of the country saw him as a vein, egotistical villain and potential rapist.

There was articles last year while he was retiring, saying good riddance to the league's ultimate villain. Not to mention that whole announced retirement tour at each away game, seemed way over the top, monotonous and overly self serving. Some even had issue with his final game, no matter how entertaining he was.

The apathy is out of him being polarizing, the league having both a better player and better all time great carrying the league, as well as basketball being in a better state than it was both times Jordan retired.

Not to mention, most people always considered Kobe to be Coverband Jordan anyway.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Thank you Dragon!!!

I've said it a million times, a lot of these fancy dribbling antics (made possible by the NBA throwing away all the palming and traveling rules) is just WASTED MOVEMENT!

Every move MJ made had a purpose to get off the best opportunity possibly for him on the court, that's it. He's probably the greatest player that established the best position to either shoot or pass in history.

During MJ's prime in terms of finally combining all his physical attributes and mental prowess (91-98) as fan of an opposing team you just ALWAYS felt that Michael was IN CONTROL of EVERY situation on floor and that includes the defensive end as well, can't say the same for anybody else.

Here's a nice compilation of what I'm talking about, watch the devastating subtlety in MJ's movements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voo64S13ZXs
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Jordan is the most efficient basketball player I've ever seen. There was no wasted motion. Every movement on the court had a purpose. That's just skill, the ability to make things look easy.

I realize Kobe made a lot of high degree of difficulty shots, however Jordan simply did not need to on a consistent basis.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Nice post Samurai!

Kobe definitely didn't do himself any favors with the public when he first came into the league as an entitled snot nosed big shot, during his feud with Shaq or the Colorado 2003 incident but in a sense I get the feeling that the guy really didn't care about what the public perception was about him the way MJ did. Hell he alienated his own close family when he married his wife!

He was just an extremely hard working, competitive, balls out basketball FLAWED basketball player that to his credit figured enough of the winning formula out to walk away from the game with impressive longevity, numbers and 5 titles!

Being a top 15-20 player of all time out of all the thousands of guys throughout history is nothing to hang your head at!
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

He's definitely top 15.

I'd go as far to say definite top 12.

No one in the game currently besides LeBron is better than prime / peak Kobe. Yes, that includes KD, Curry, Harden and Westbrick. In all their overrated, flawed but well promoted statistical glory.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:01 PM   #23
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

definitive top 12 is a close one.

Jerry West was just such a better playoff/finals performer. I cant take Kobe over West, realistically, impact wise.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater
definitive top 12 is a close one.

Jerry West was just such a better playoff/finals performer. I cant take Kobe over West, realistically, impact wise.
But Kobe led his teams to rings. Most have him top 12. He's interchangeable with the likes of Hakeem, and Duncan.

And I say that as someone who thinks all American white superstars are horrendously underrated. Bird, West, Rick Barry, Stockton, Price etc. People mention Russell but never Mikan?! That's fair ...

And I'm a massive fan of Mr. logo. Guy was a bad man. At SG or PG. Combo guard and could actually play defense.

Last edited by SamuraiSWISH : 04-20-2017 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Question for Samurai and Arbitrary, where do you guys rank Isiah Thomas all time?
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by Showtime80'
Question for Samurai and Arbitrary, where do you guys rank Isiah Thomas all time?
2nd best PG ever.

First if you count Magic as a Point Forward, which is what he really was because he couldn't guard PGs. Like when Sleepy Floyd gave him 51 in a playoff game.

Isiah Thomas is better than Dirk, and German born Arbitrary Water will have him ranked lower. Zeke is top 25 - 30 somewhere.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:23 PM   #27
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

The thing is the most SKILLED PLAYER isn't always the better player! In this case, Kobe is more skilled in terms of handles. And he used the three ball more as a weapon. BUT MJ was the better player peak-prime wise. MJ had a better balance of when to play hero ball and when to play within the team context. And of course MJ was great at scoring, passing, rebounding, and defending his position. Kobe was great at all those areas too, but MJ was still the superior player.

It's a situation where Kobe was actually TOO SIMILAR to MJ. And MJ already broke the mold.
In the grand scheme the perimeter legends like MJ, Baylor, Big O, Magic, Bron, and Bird revolutionized their positions more than Kobe did. They were all truly groundbreaking in what they brought to the game. In the case of Kobe, he wasn't nearly as revolutionary. BUT in terms of total offensive skill, he was the cream of the crop. But MJ was STILL the better player.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:27 PM   #28
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
This is the guy (professor at georgetown) who compared LeBron to Kobe to MJ a few months ago, claiming NOBODY in sports-history handles adversity greater than LeBron.

With that being said, he thinks Kobe is the greatest as far as in-game and pure skills go. That "nobody made tougher shots, had the footwork, grace" etc.

I don't agree with him, but I do think there's a case to be made on Kobe's extraordinary skillset without being laughed out of a barbershop
Kobe only made tougher shots because he was stupid enough to shoot them. A better basketball player makes better decisions with shot selection.

And running away from a team to a better one is the best way of handling adversity?
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:28 PM   #29
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
But Kobe led his teams to rings. Most have him top 12. He's interchangeable with the likes of Hakeem, and Duncan.

And I say that as someone who thinks all American white superstars are horrendously underrated. Bird, West, Rick Barry, Stockton, Price etc. People mention Russell but never Mikan?! That's fair ...

And I'm a massive fan of Mr. logo. Guy was a bad man. At SG or PG. Combo guard and could actually play defense.

So then wouldn't you rank Kobe over Oscar?
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Damn Samurai, don't you think 25-30 is little low for Zeke?

I bring him up to show how media perception and backing can affect your position all-time.

Isiah Thomas before 1988 was top 10 in MVP voting 4 times (top 5 in 1984) and was 5 time All-NBA. This was when he was a one man show happy go lucky smiling non-threatening mini Magic type player on a middle of the road up and coming team.

After the Larry Bird comments in the summer of 1987 when the Pistons became true contenders and eventually champions playing the physical and bruising style they pioneered while Isiah was playing equally as great or even more as he did before he made 0 All-NBA teams and never again made the top 10 MVP voting from 1988 onward!

To me the guy is firmly in the top 15-20 range just on his 1990 Finals MVP performance alone which is still possibly the most underrated of all time:

28 ppg on 54% FG, 68% 3PFG, 74%FT
7 assts
5 rbs
2 stls
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