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Old 04-20-2017, 03:37 PM   #31
Dragonyeuw
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

I have Isiah somewhere 20-25, I'm not sure where exactly. But to be clear, 15-20 for me is guys like Barkley, Robinson, Garnett, Malone, Dirk. I got Wade and Isiah right after those guys. It's all subjective though....
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
Skill was never an issue with Kobe, more about application of skill. Kobe straddled the line between having a great IQ and feel for the game and with some of the shots he would take. Best 'tough' shotmaker is somewhat of a back-handed compliment. MJ took better shots generally and his athletic advantages and better off-ball skillset made scoring easier for him. He didn't need to take some of the shots Kobe had to beat the defense. Doesn't matter much whether Kobe had better handles( product of playing in the and-1 era), MJ got to where he needed to go when he needed to. Kobe was the more prolific range shooter, MJ was overall superior from mid-range, dude shot like 49% on 1500 shots in the midrange area one year.

Ultimately it's about the results on the court. MJ did everything well enough to where you couldn't exploit anything to your advantage.

Well said! To me a great handle is being able to navigate most situations NO MATTER what type of defender is guarding you. And from there being able to apply it in all areas of the court. And lastly, it's not easy to rip the ball from you. So in that sense, MJ had a great handle.

When the And1 era came around, it was more about using a flashy handle much more often. It was about putting guys on an island and making them look bad for an extended period of time. Guys like Isiah would do this, but not as often because for one he was pass first PG. And two, usually he would use the flashy handles to get where he needed to go faster. The And1 era had major ball stoppage in that style.

Last edited by bizil : 04-20-2017 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:53 PM   #33
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

I get you Dragon!

The 10 to 20 all time range is more difficult to sort out than the 1-10. You have the guys that won at least one title while being the BEST players on the team and put up great career numbers with the accolades to back it up:

Kobe
Cowens
Moses
Isiah
Wade
Dirk
Barry
Walton
Garnett
West (debatable)

Then come the guys that had at least one title with great careers and accolades but NOT the best player on their title teams:

Robertson
Dr J
McAdoo
D. Robinson
West
Hondo

Damn hard who do leave out?!?! I just can't put guys like Barkley, K. Malone and Dominique in that range regardless of numbers.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:06 PM   #34
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents
So then wouldn't you rank Kobe over Oscar?
Kobe is easily both better and greater than that loser.

Big O and Wilt are both the most overrated losers on the all time lists.

Selfish, only they couldn't translate to winning.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Kobe is easily both better and greater than that loser.

Big O and Wilt are both the most overrated losers on the all time lists.

Selfish, only they couldn't translate to winning.


Jordan without Pippen was a bigger loser than both of them
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Kobe is easily both better and greater than that loser.

Big O and Wilt are both the most overrated losers on the all time lists.

Selfish, only they couldn't translate to winning.

Lol, I assumed by Kobe being 12th you ranked Oscar ahead of him. Besides the typical players you see in the top 10, who else do you rank over Kobe?
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Really Kobe should be top 5 ever with his accolades and accomplishments. Being a top all-nba performer on 5 championships teams is a feat that really only Jordan did.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:19 PM   #38
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by Showtime80'
Question for Samurai and Arbitrary, where do you guys rank Isiah Thomas all time?

That fcker is tough to rank...

feels like Russell sometimes, benefiting from being in the right spot at the right moment, although on a lesser scale obviously.

But he's got the resume, achievements and even moments to back some kind of worthy historical placement.

He had the right personality for his team, too. Leader of men, type.

~30 doesn't sound wrong.

Of course Samurai Swish is epically off when he says Isiah Thomas is better than Dirk.

Which lets me get back to you, Samurai...

we've established that since the 2000's, these players are better than Dirk (according to you):

(James/Shaq obviously) Kobe, KG, Wade, Paul, Durant... what about: Iverson? Melo? Curry? Harden? Westbrook? Nash? Howard before 2013 injury, Leonard?

Are they not better than Dirk as well?
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:23 PM   #39
Dragonyeuw
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by Showtime80'
I get you Dragon!

The 10 to 20 all time range is more difficult to sort out than the 1-10. You have the guys that won at least one title while being the BEST players on the team and put up great career numbers with the accolades to back it up:

Kobe
Cowens
Moses
Isiah
Wade
Dirk
Barry
Walton
Garnett
West (debatable)

Then come the guys that had at least one title with great careers and accolades but NOT the best player on their title teams:

Robertson
Dr J
McAdoo
D. Robinson
West
Hondo

Damn hard who do leave out?!?! I just can't put guys like Barkley, K. Malone and Dominique in that range regardless of numbers.

Yeah, I hear ya. For me it's why I don't get overly caught up in GOAT lists. I find on this website that people think too much in absolutes. Kobe is the 12th best player? NO, he's the 11th best!!. I mean ****, really? I tend to group players in tiers and don't agonize too much over some arbitrary list. Example, I have KG and Dirk in the same tier. Now, whichever one you have ahead in a list is of little matter to me personally, I just view them in the same context in terms of their historical stature.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
Yeah, I hear ya. For me it's why I don't get overly caught up in GOAT lists. I find on this website that people think too much in absolutes. Kobe is the 12th best player? NO, he's the 11th best!!. I mean ****, really? I tend to group players in tiers and don't agonize too much over some arbitrary list. Example, I have KG and Dirk in the same tier. Now, whichever one you have ahead in a list is of little matter to me personally, I just view them in the same context in terms of their historical stature.



i had to use that pun just once. now was the time
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:29 PM   #41
Dragonyeuw
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater


i had to use that pun just once. now was the time

What exactly about that comment causes that reaction? The list is arbitrary, it's subjective. Or are you saying these things are factual and definitive? Actually don't answer that, I realized as I was typing this I don't really care that much about your opinion.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:34 PM   #42
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

Kobe fam = professors and white collar professionals

Bran fam = fast food workers
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:36 PM   #43
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by houston
Really Kobe should be top 5 ever with his accolades and accomplishments. Being a top all-nba performer on 5 championships teams is a feat that really only Jordan did.

Not really. In 2000 Kobe was clearly a role player, his impact aint much more important than the likes of Robert Horry and Rick Fox. In 2001 Kobe started to emerge as a capable sidekick, but that Lakers team could've still won it all replacing him by any all-star SG. 2002 was when Kobe started to become irreplaceable, but Shaq was still the leader obviously.

Realistically, Kobe's 3 titles from 00-02 combined aint worth as much as 1 title from Lebron, Duncan and Shaq. Hes nowhere near top 5, No.12 of all time is where he truly belongs.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:43 PM   #44
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets

Realistically, Kobe's 3 titles from 00-02 combined aint worth as much as 1 title from Lebron, Duncan and Shaq. .

so kobes first three titles, in which his team actually beat Duncan 8 games to 1 during that stretch, is not worth one of Duncans rings?
So kobes first three titles, are not worth more than Lebrons first collusion ring?
So Kobes first three titles are not worth more than Shaqs 4th ring?
amazing.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:49 PM   #45
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Default Re: Michael Eric Dyson: Jordan the greatest career, but Kobe the greatest bball player

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Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Not really. In 2000 Kobe was clearly a role player, his impact aint much more important than the likes of Robert Horry and Rick Fox.
1st round Kobe averaged 27pts. Glen rice was third with 16. What did Horry and Fox average?
2nd round Kobe averaged 21. Glen came in third again with 11. What did Horry and Fox average?
WCF Kobe averaged 20...same as above.
Finals he averaged 15 pts. But guess what, even though he played horrible and missed a game (basically 2 games, as he only played 9 minutes in one), no one else other than Shaq averaged more points.

So tell me again how Kobe was a roll player like Fox and Horry in 2000?
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