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Old 08-22-2017, 11:20 AM   #16
HylianNightmare
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

A true service, future rep
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

Just as we though, Kareem outplayed Wilt
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:25 AM   #18
LAZERUSS
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

BTW, Julizaver was the FIRST person to ever post those H2H's.

And he is a major contributor at nbastats.net, which is slowly piecing together so many of the box-scores from the 60's and up. Just amazing research being done there. Oh, and it appears that basketball-reference is alos using nbastats.net in updating their own info.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS

Then, thanks to posters like Julizaver, and those at nbastats.net, we now KNOW the staggering numbers Chamberlain was putting up...including his play against Russell in their 143 career H2H's. Not only did Wilt outplay Russell in the vast majority of those H2H's, he was downright carpet-bombing him in many of them.

Then, thanks to posters like CavFTW, we have FOOTAGE, and even FIRST-HAND interviews with the likes of Tex Winter, Hank Stram, and Arnold Schwartzennger, which clearly confirm what was known at the time...that Wilt was a world-class athlete with enormous strength.


I also check with the data from nbastats.net and I probably will contact them and send corrected shot-blocking data, because they had some mistakes.

As I sidenote - I have all the data for Wilt in 1971 postseason and he blocked 67 shots (22 vs Bucks) or average of 5.83 blocks in 12 games. Based on the other data I gained it seems that in '72, '73 and '69 postseason he blocked more then 6 (having 80-90% of all data). And I have all the totals for the 3 series vs Bulls in 70s.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by julizaver
I also check with the data from nbastats.net and I probably will contact them and send corrected shot-blocking data, because they had some mistakes.

As I sidenote - I have all the data for Wilt in 1971 postseason and he blocked 67 shots (22 vs Bucks) or average of 5.83 blocks in 12 games. Based on the other data I gained it seems that in '72, '73 and '69 postseason he blocked more then 6 (having 80-90% of all data). And I have all the totals for the 3 series vs Bulls in 70s.

Much appreciated.

And yes, I have been tracking the data that nbastats.net has been posting. I see that Wilt had 54 blocked shots in the '69 Finals....and something like a 7.7 bpg average in that post-season (with missing data from one game I believe.)
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by scuzzy
Just as we though, Kareem outplayed Wilt
I wouldn't read too much into linear stats of Kareem and Wilt in terms of points scored and the field goals attempted should give you a clue why.

Not unlike the Wilt vs Russell match ups. Which have to be viewed in a similar manner. Wilt on the Lakers took less shots than Jabbar on the Bucks and had a different role for the team. Jabbar's team needed Jabbar to shoot, and make baskets as a first-option. Wilt's role on his team was to jog up court if the first transition or half-court set failed. He was the big gun that cleaned up when his offense failed and this allowed him to hang back on defense and stop the other teams transition game. Him doing his job looks a lot different on film and similarly is different on a stat sheet than Jabbar doing his job.

As a result of this different approach to the game Newspaper headlines and testimony give a much better insight who was outplaying who. A lot of the games where the stats would appear to favor Jabbar I'll read a recap of the game and be surprised to see Wilt would get like a standing ovation from the BUCKS crowd for stopping Jabbar in crucial moments of a game and the headline is that he outplayed Jabbar. Other games will point out he disrupted him all game long. Might not have scored a lot but again - that wasn't his job. They played on pretty much even terms h2h with no one getting an edge over the other and holding on to it as far as news recaps appear to indicate. In the Playoffs Wilt outplayed Jabbar in 2 playoff series (with Wilt's Lakers losing one of those, and winning another), and Jabbar outplayed Wilt in 1 series yet his Bucks lost that series. Of course game by game who outplayed who would vary even in these series where it was one or the other being considered superior throughout the series but like a perfect example of looking at a stat sheet vs looking at headlines would lead you to believe Wilt got outplayed in 1972 but the polar opposite is testified by those who watched that series. Wilt bested Jabbar in 1972 Playoffs, and the stat sheets just don't tell that story.

I know you have a reputation as a shit poster though so you probably don't give a crap about details or insight - I'm answering this more for everyone else.

Last edited by CavaliersFTW : 08-22-2017 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
I wouldn't read too much into linear stats of Kareem and Wilt - at least not on the part of points scored because the field goals attempted should tell it all in that department.

Newspaper headlines and testimony give better insight. A lot of the games where the stats would appear to favor Jabbar Wilt would get like a standing ovation from the BUCKS crowd for stopping Jabbar in crucial moments of a game.

Not unlike the Wilt vs Russell match ups. Which have to be viewed in a similar manner. Wilt on the Lakers took less shots than Jabbar on the Bucks and had a different role for the team. Jabbar's team needed Jabbar to shoot, and make baskets as a first-option. Wilt's role on his team was to jog up court if the first transition or half-court set failed. He was the big gun that cleaned up when his offense failed and this allowed him to hang back on defense and stop the other teams transition game. Him doing his job looks a lot different on film and similarly is different on a stat sheet than Jabbar doing his job.

I know you have a reputation as a shit poster though so you probably don't give a crap about details or insight - I'm answering this more for everyone else.

On top of all of that, in 27 of those 28 career H2H's, Chamberlain was playing post-surgery and between 34-36 years old, and was nowhere near his prime.

Given the fact that a prime Chamberlain was far more dominant against the same centers that a prime Kareem faced a few years later, I don't think there is any doubt that Chamberlain was the more dominant player. In fact, aside from FT shooting (and Chamberlain MADE more FTs on average in his career BTW), Wilt was a better scorer, more efficient from the floor, a better rebounder, a better passer, a better rim protector, and a better one-on-one- defender.
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:04 PM   #23
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

The usual suspects rushing to defend Wilt's honour
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:16 PM   #24
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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The usual suspects rushing to defend Wilt's honour

Well he's undoubtedly a Top 4-5 player all-time, what's there to defend?

It's not Dwight Howard we're talking about here
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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The usual suspects rushing to defend Wilt's honour
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Well he's undoubtedly a Top 4-5 player all-time, what's there to defend?

It's not Dwight Howard we're talking about here
Scroll up then.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
As a sidenote to above...I know that you are using newspaper recaps, but if you watch that game, which is the only full game footage we have between the two, Chamberlain actually outblocked Kareem by probably a 4-3 to margin.

6-3, as far as I remember. Maybe 6-4 (Wilt missed a shot near the basket under Kareem's contest, but it's hard to see whether Kareem got any ball). Where they got 9 or 10 blocks for Kareem, I have no idea. It's not even a typical of the era "parts of the game are missing" thing. It was shown complete.
They had also screwed up rebounding numbers. The real tally was much closer to 17-17 or 17-16 in favor of Wilt (Kareem grabbed one just at the sound of a quarter's buzzer). Initially, I wasn't even interested to keep their rebounding numbers, assuming they were correct, but at one point I realized Wilt had grabbed way too many to be only 12, and thus was the truth revealed...

Last edited by Psileas : 08-22-2017 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:01 PM   #28
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psileas
6-3, as far as I remember. Maybe 6-4 (Wilt missed a shot near the basket under Kareem's contest, but it's hard to see whether Kareem got any ball). Where they got 9 or 10 blocks for Kareem, I have no idea. It's not even a typical of the era "parts of the game are missing" thing. It was shown complete.
They had also screwed up rebounding numbers. The real tally was much closer to 17-17 or 17-16 in favor of Wilt (Kareem grabbed one just at the sound of a quarter's buzzer). Initially, I wasn't even interested to keep their rebounding numbers, assuming they were correct, but at one point I realized Wilt had grabbed way too many to be only 12, and thus was the truth revealed...

I got some interesting info about that (Russell got +14 rebounds in the 1965 EDF game by official statisticions, while Pollack check as he was present and it was very different picture) ,and also doubts about Kareem rebounds in last games from 1972 WDF.
Anyway I will check that game also, I saw on youtube but it was not the whole game.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostCause
Well he's undoubtedly a Top 4-5 player all-time, what's there to defend?

It's not Dwight Howard we're talking about here

As is Kareem.

I personally have Wilt at #1 and KAJ at #4.

In any case, here is what I find fascinating...

By now, almost everyone here now has read last year's ESPN's Top-100 basketball player list. MJ was listed #1, KAJ #2, Magic at #4, Wilt at #5, Bird at #6, and Russell at #7.

However, ESPN's Sports Century in 1999 ranked them like this:
1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird


Aside from a washed up MJ, the rest of those players did not play a game after 1999. What changed since 1999?

Furthermore, we now have far more data available today, than we did in 1999, especially in the last 5-10 years. For instance, we now have 95% of the Wilt-Russell H2H data of pts. rbs, FGA-FGM, FTA-FTM, and many with assists and blocks.

My point being...we have MUCH more data available today, than from 1999...and 99% of that has been FAVORABLE to Chamberlain. We now KNOW that Chamberlain was putting up staggering numbers against EVERYONE...including RUSSELL. He had SEASONS, covering 10 H2H games, in which he averaged 38 ppg, 39 ppg, and even 40 ppg against Russell. He had 20 straight H2H's, covering two straight seasons, in which he AVERAGED 48 ppg against HOFer Walt Bellamy. I could go on, but Wilt was easily the most dominant player of all-time.

So, again...what changed from 1999?
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

Quote:
Originally Posted by julizaver
I got some interesting info about that (Russell got +14 rebounds in the 1965 EDF game by official statisticions, while Pollack check as he was present and it was very different picture) ,and also doubts about Kareem rebounds in last games from 1972 WDF.
Anyway I will check that game also, I saw on youtube but it was not the whole game.

Pollack mentioned that at some point. He and a writer from SI (I believe) secretly kept track of the rebounds in a Russell-Wilt H2H in Boston. The "official" scorekeepers had it something like 35-22 in favor of Russell. Pollack had it almost completely the opposite. He pointed it out, and from day on he said that Auernbach didn't speak to him.
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