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Old 08-22-2017, 01:20 PM   #31
stalkerforlife
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

One was in his prime.

One was not.

And the one that wasn't still did pretty damn well.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:30 PM   #32
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Pollack mentioned that at some point. He and a writer from SI (I believe) secretly kept track of the rebounds in a Russell-Wilt H2H in Boston. The "official" scorekeepers had it something like 35-22 in favor of Russell. Pollack had it almost completely the opposite. He pointed it out, and from day on he said that Auernbach didn't speak to him.

It could be anorher case around 1960, in the article I mentioned Pollack is live on radio and the game is in Boston. And what Pollack give as a data is something like 30-18 for Wilt, while the official stats is something like 32 to 31 for Russell. I am not in front of PC now so I cant give further details, but I have saved the article and could show or send to someone.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by julizaver
It could be anorher case around 1960, in the article I mentioned Pollack is live on radio and the game is in Boston. And what Pollack give as a data is something like 30-18 for Wilt, while the official stats is something like 32 to 31 for Russell. I am not in front of PC now so I cant give further details, but I have saved the article and could show or send to someone.

No need to go to that trouble.
I have read something similar before.

But it does seem to point out that...for all of his staggering statistical accomplishments, Wilt appears to have been short-changed on at least a few occasions.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

BTW Julizaver...

am I correct in the assumption that BB-Reference is using nbastats.net box scores for their data?

Oh, and I found this in their data...

https://www.basketball-reference.com...702040PHI.html

But I didn't see it at nabstats.net (at least last i checked.)
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by Psileas
6-3, as far as I remember. Maybe 6-4 (Wilt missed a shot near the basket under Kareem's contest, but it's hard to see whether Kareem got any ball). Where they got 9 or 10 blocks for Kareem, I have no idea. It's not even a typical of the era "parts of the game are missing" thing. It was shown complete.
They had also screwed up rebounding numbers. The real tally was much closer to 17-17 or 17-16 in favor of Wilt (Kareem grabbed one just at the sound of a quarter's buzzer). Initially, I wasn't even interested to keep their rebounding numbers, assuming they were correct, but at one point I realized Wilt had grabbed way too many to be only 12, and thus was the truth revealed...

Again...I find it fascinating that as unfathomable as Chamberlain's numbers were...he was likely short-changed on at least a few occasions, and perhaps quite a few.

As a side-note, I wonder how many blocked shots Chamberlain actually had in his triple-double playoff game against the Royals (16-30-19.) It has been estimated as high as 20.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:19 PM   #36
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
BTW Julizaver...

am I correct in the assumption that BB-Reference is using nbastats.net box scores for their data?

Oh, and I found this in their data...

https://www.basketball-reference.com...702040PHI.html

But I didn't see it at nabstats.net (at least last i checked.)

I don't know to be honest, I am not part of the team behind nbastats.net - I just made some small contribution years ago and give them some info about Wilt and Kareem, the sources I used and something like that and it was usefull for them.
I don't know that bb-reference is publishing fga data, the last time I checked it was using some old newspapers clipings, which I think were provided by person, who collect it during the years (can't remember the name at the moment - but he is famous for having all boxscores from all nba games, although withoit the complete data like rebounds, assists, fga).
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Again...I find it fascinating that as unfathomable as Chamberlain's numbers were...he was likely short-changed on at least a few occasions, and perhaps quite a few.

As a side-note, I wonder how many blocked shots Chamberlain actually had in his triple-double playoff game against the Royals (16-30-19.) It has been estimated as high as 20.

In the Cincinatti Enquirer article from that game is mentioned the following:

" ... must have blocked eight shots and gosh knows how many others he forced off the mark."

So I assumed he blocked at least 8 and in my data I stick with this conservative number.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:34 PM   #38
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by julizaver
I don't know to be honest, I am not part of the team behind nbastats.net - I just made some small contribution years ago and give them some info about Wilt and Kareem, the sources I used and something like that and it was usefull for them.
I don't know that bb-reference is publishing fga data, the last time I checked it was using some old newspapers clipings, which I think were provided by person, who collect it during the years (can't remember the name at the moment - but he is famous for having all boxscores from all nba games, although withoit the complete data like rebounds, assists, fga).

As you can see from that posted box-score, they are now using FGA/FGM, FTA/FTM, rebounds, etc.

I suspect that they are getting that info from nbastats.net, but this above box score does not show at nbastats.net (last time I looked anyway.)
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

What I see from this is that a young Kareem was about as good as Wilt near the end of his prime. Then Kareem continued to grow but Wilt became old and washed up. It still doesnt tell anything about peak Kareem vs peak Wilt though.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:39 PM   #40
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by julizaver
In the Cincinatti Enquirer article from that game is mentioned the following:

" ... must have blocked eight shots and gosh knows how many others he forced off the mark."

So I assumed he blocked at least 8 and in my data I stick with this conservative number.

Yeah...last I checked nbastats.net had an "estimated" 20 blocks.

BTW, between nbastats.net and bb-reference, we now have almost all the pts, rebs, FGA/FGM, FTA/FTM numbers between Wilt and Thurmond in their career H2H's. The only season that Nate played well offensively against Chamberlain (relatively well anyway) was in their 70-71 H2H's,...and of course, Wilt was coming off of major knee surgery from the season before.

Other than that one season, Nate couldn't throw a ball into the Grand Canyon from the ledge against Wilt.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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What I see from this is that a young Kareem was about as good as Wilt near the end of his prime. Then Kareem continued to grow but Wilt became old and washed up. It still doesnt tell anything about peak Kareem vs peak Wilt though.

Kareem's peak began in the second half of his rookie season, and went thru the entire 70-71 season and playoffs, and then into his 71-72 regular season. After Thurmond and Wilt shut him down in the '72 playoffs, he was never again as dominant.

And yes, he was at his peak by his rookie season. He played four years of college ball, and was the best player in the country all four.

As for Wilt...his last HEALTHY prime season was 68-69...or the year before Kareem arrived. In their only H2H before Chamberlain shredded his knee, he easily outplayed Kareem. After that he was playing on a surgically repaired knee, and from ages 34-36.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:45 PM   #42
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Kareem's peak began in the second half of his rookie season, and went thru the entire 70-71 season and playoffs, and then into his 71-72 regular season. After Thurmond and Wilt shut him down in the '72 playoffs, he was never again as dominant.

And yes, he was at his peak by his rookie season. He played four years of college ball, and was the best player in the country all four.

As for Wilt...his last HEALTHY prime season was 68-69...or the year before Kareem arrived. In their only H2H before Chamberlain shredded his knee, he easily outplayed Kareem. After that he was playing on a surgically repaired knee, and from ages 34-36.

So you are saying Wilt > Kareem? To me these two are about even, kinda hard to pick who is ahead on the all time list.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:46 PM   #43
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Kareem's peak began in the second half of his rookie season, and went thru the entire 70-71 season and playoffs, and then into his 71-72 regular season. After Thurmond and Wilt shut him down in the '72 playoffs, he was never again as dominant.

And yes, he was at his peak by his rookie season. He played four years of college ball, and was the best player in the country all four.

As for Wilt...his last HEALTHY prime season was 68-69...or the year before Kareem arrived. In their only H2H before Chamberlain shredded his knee, he easily outplayed Kareem. After that he was playing on a surgically repaired knee, and from ages 34-36.
Do you even know what peak is? Ilt Chokerlain got shit on in his peak and even missed the PO's, going by your definition.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:51 PM   #44
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
So you are saying Wilt > Kareem? To me these two are about even, kinda hard to pick who is ahead on the all time list.

The only edge KAJ has is the fact that he won six rings. FIVE of which came after Magic arrived.

In his first ten prime seasons, KAJ only went to TWO Finals, and only won ONE ring. Hell, he missed the playoffs altogether in the middle of the 70's, and had stacked rosters get blown out by a Sonics team with one borderline HOFer in '78 and '79.

Statistically, Chamberlain holds an overwhelming edge.

And before someone mentions Wilt's playoff scoring...he played in the Eastern Division almost his entire prime, and met the Celtics in the either the first or second round in six of them.

Interesting too, that Chamberlain's teams went 10-1 against the West in his playoff career, when he was in the West (losing only to KAJ's '71 66-16 Bucks.) Add in his one Finals win while in the East, and his team's went 11-1 against the West in his post-season career.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:55 PM   #45
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain vs Kareem Abdul-Jabbar game by game stats_updated

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Originally Posted by aj1987
Do you even know what peak is? Ilt Chokerlain got shit on in his peak and even missed the PO's, going by your definition.

Yep...got shit on with a 45 ppg season. Led the league in NINETEEN categories. And averaged 38 ppg aaginst Russell and his EIGHT other HOFers.

Meanwhile a peak Kareem played 44 mpg on a team that went 63-19, and averaged 35 ppg on a .574 FG%. When he joined a Laker team in the mid-70's, he played 41 mpg, and averaged 28 ppg on a .529...for a team that missed the playoffs.

Do some RESEARCH before spouting your typical garbage.
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