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Old 09-03-2017, 09:39 AM   #16
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDavidKahn
I said "truly good defensive players". Delly is a scrub and his defense isn't even that good.



Prime Wallace might just be the greatest defensive player ever and was the key cog to a championship team.

Just look at the 03-04 season when they won the championship:

First round: Milwaukee (106.5 ORTG 4th in league) - 95.8 ORTG
Second round: Nets (100.8 ORTG 25th in league) - 93.5 ORTG
Third round: Pacers (103.8 ORTG 9th in league) - 87.8 ORTG
Finals: Lakers (105.5 ORTG 6th in league) - 96.1 ORTG

I'm not talking about run of the mill defenders, I'm talking about truly elite. They are very rare which is why they are so sought after. It's much easier to find offensive talent than it is defensive talent.

Utah isn't even a playoff team last year if they didn't have Gobert.

Who do you think is more impactful?

Draymond

or

Lou Williams?
Jamal Crawford?

Ben Wallace was amazing. I was simply asking you a question. I think Nash was the more valuable players personally, but it is far closer than most think.

Defense at the individual level does get a tad over-rated though at times.

Your Draymond vs Lou Williams / Crawford example is pretty telling.

Lou and Crawford aren't even what I would call good offensive players. Draymond is a better offensive player than both of them and then obviously he's an all time great defender while they both suck on defense.

I'm not disputing that defense at the elite level really matters, it does, and certainly not disputing guys like Wallace and Gobert being great players.

But elite offense at the individual level usually trumps elite defense.

Take your Gobert example. Harden is a more valuable player pretty clearly in my opinion. Do you dispute that?
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:28 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by tpols
That's not true at all...finding true clutch offensive talent is the highest premium in this sport.
This isn't true at all either.

In the moderrn era, Robert Horry was in a league of his own in that regards.


... .


The only two players who were consistent in clutch situations were Magic and Jordan. Dirk was definitely outplayed by defensive talent in clutch situations as well.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:38 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by tpols
That's not true at all...finding true clutch offensive talent is the highest premium in this sport. ANY body can play defense if they want. We see that with guys like Matthew dellavdova..its just effort and discipline. Every skill in basketball can be replaced with effort EXCEPT putting the ball in the hole in adverse situations. THAT is where true talent shines and if they have the all around stuff on top of that its just a cherry.

Defense isn't just effort and discipline lol
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Ben Wallace was amazing. I was simply asking you a question. I think Nash was the more valuable players personally, but it is far closer than most think.

Defense at the individual level does get a tad over-rated though at times.

Your Draymond vs Lou Williams / Crawford example is pretty telling.

Lou and Crawford aren't even what I would call good offensive players. Draymond is a better offensive player than both of them and then obviously he's an all time great defender while they both suck on defense.

I'm not disputing that defense at the elite level really matters, it does, and certainly not disputing guys like Wallace and Gobert being great players.

But elite offense at the individual level usually trumps elite defense.

Take your Gobert example. Harden is a more valuable player pretty clearly in my opinion. Do you dispute that?
Dray isn't a better offensive player than Lou, EG or Jamal
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:45 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

Also if you want to compare the amount of times the best offensive teams make it to the championship to the amount of times the best defensive teams do it - its a slaughter. You want to compare the amount of great coaches that say defense is what wins chips, its a slaughter. Its not close, its a joke.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

Dirk is better than KG.

What's new?
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:08 AM   #22
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by stalkerforlife
Dirk is better than KG.

What's new?

pretty much. Dirk being more valuable when they face up is probably the biggest indicator of that, since KG's greatest strength perhaps, his defense, is nullified and useless. Dirk simply has more offensive impact while KG's defensive edge is gone in a match-up since it's not doing anything to stop Dirk anyway.

Hence, Dirk's team wins 9/10 times.
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater
pretty much. Dirk being more valuable when they face up is probably the biggest indicator of that, since KG's greatest strength perhaps, his defense, is nullified and useless. Dirk simply has more offensive impact while KG's defensive edge is gone in a match-up since it's not doing anything to stop Dirk anyway.

Hence, Dirk's team wins 9/10 times.

That other site sees KG as a fringe top 10 player of all time.
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

Think about the fact of how much talent Dirk played with vs. KG during their primes and the fact that they both STILL ended up with 1 title and 1 MVP..
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by eliteballer
Think about the fact of how much talent Dirk played with vs. KG during their primes and the fact that they both STILL ended up with 1 title and 1 MVP..

Dirk's title >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garnett's.
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Old 09-03-2017, 02:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

I've always viewed KG and Dirk as a tossup.

Just depends on what your team needs or the personnel built around them.

If you're starting a team from scratch, Dirk will put more asses in the seats. He's one of the greatest offensive forces the games seen, and on that merit alone you'll sellout arenas.
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Old 09-03-2017, 03:48 PM   #27
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by CuhGetsBucks
Dray isn't a better offensive player than Lou, EG or Jamal

Yes he is.

Not sure why people think players that can't score efficiently in the playoffs and don't make teammates better are quality offensive players.
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Old 09-03-2017, 03:49 PM   #28
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by Pointguard
This isn't true at all either.

In the moderrn era, Robert Horry was in a league of his own in that regards.


... .


The only two players who were consistent in clutch situations were Magic and Jordan. Dirk was definitely outplayed by defensive talent in clutch situations as well.

You are confusing making big shots as a role player with generating consistent offense for yourself and your team.

So is Rudy Gobert a better player than Dirk was? If not, why? If defense is as important as you claim...how could Dirk be better?
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Old 09-03-2017, 03:54 PM   #29
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
No that is absurd. Offense is way more valuable in basketball, especially considering that you have to score so much.

I think the point is that on an NBA level, 90-95%+ of the league can score with relative ease and the percentage of players willing to put in the defensive effort combined with the ability to actually play elite defense is a significantly lower percentage...

The greatest winner in the history of the sport would strongly disagree with you.
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Old 09-03-2017, 04:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

I swear the topics on this forum is akin to a dog chasing its tail.
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