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Old 09-03-2017, 04:41 PM   #31
Sarcastic
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by Orlando Magic
I think the point is that on an NBA level, 90-95%+ of the league can score with relative ease and the percentage of players willing to put in the defensive effort combined with the ability to actually play elite defense is a significantly lower percentage...

The greatest winner in the history of the sport would strongly disagree with you.


That's completely false. Being able to score is the hardest skill in basketball.


I'm not saying defense isn't important. It certainly is. But look at the top players of all time. There's only 1 guy in there that is only there for his defense, and that's the one you mentioned.
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Old 09-03-2017, 04:56 PM   #32
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by Orlando Magic
I think the point is that on an NBA level, 90-95%+ of the league can score with relative ease and the percentage of players willing to put in the defensive effort combined with the ability to actually play elite defense is a significantly lower percentage...

The greatest winner in the history of the sport would strongly disagree with you.

************s.
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:03 PM   #33
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
That's completely false. Being able to score is the hardest skill in basketball.


I'm not saying defense isn't important. It certainly is. But look at the top players of all time. There's only 1 guy in there that is only there for his defense, and that's the one you mentioned.

And he isn't in for his defense, he's in for his championships.

The Ben Wallace example is pretty good. Ben was great, the greatest big man defender mid 00s along KG, but he could only do so much. You fill a team with 5 Bens vs 5 '04 Shaqs the Shaqs will always win.

Yes he could lower his opposition's # significally, but he couldn't raise his against any defender.
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:42 PM   #34
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by FireDavidKahn
I said "truly good defensive players". Delly is a scrub and his defense isn't even that good.



Prime Wallace might just be the greatest defensive player ever and was the key cog to a championship team.

Just look at the 03-04 season when they won the championship:

First round: Milwaukee (106.5 ORTG 4th in league) - 95.8 ORTG
Second round: Nets (100.8 ORTG 25th in league) - 93.5 ORTG
Third round: Pacers (103.8 ORTG 9th in league) - 87.8 ORTG
Finals: Lakers (105.5 ORTG 6th in league) - 96.1 ORTG

I'm not talking about run of the mill defenders, I'm talking about truly elite. They are very rare which is why they are so sought after. It's much easier to find offensive talent than it is defensive talent.

Utah isn't even a playoff team last year if they didn't have Gobert.

Who do you think is more impactful?

Draymond

or

Lou Williams?
Jamal Crawford?

Except you were asked about Steve Nash, a top 10 all time player at his position, that's not easy to find/
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:47 PM   #35
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
You are confusing making big shots as a role player with generating consistent offense for yourself and your team.
No I'm not. I addressed this exactly as it was written:
"finding true clutch offensive talent is the highest premium in this sport."

You are not addressing that or me.
Quote:
So is Rudy Gobert a better player than Dirk was? If not, why? If defense is as important as you claim...how could Dirk be better?
Dirk is not in the same realm as Russsell. Russell had a one of the best clutch shot makers ever on his team. And he delivered a lot more than Dirk did. Nobody even knows who he is. Gobert on a great defensive team can be seen as great but for now nobody is going to give him that. But defense is a much higher premium in the playoffs than offense. Great defensive team win most of the time. Great, primarily, offensive teams almost never win the chip.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:54 PM   #36
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by Pointguard
No I'm not. I addressed this exactly as it was written:
"finding true clutch offensive talent is the highest premium in this sport."

You are not addressing that or me.

Dirk is not in the same realm as Russsell. Russell had a one of the best clutch shot makers ever on his team. And he delivered a lot more than Dirk did. Nobody even knows who he is. Gobert on a great defensive team can be seen as great but for now nobody is going to give him that. But defense is a much higher premium in the playoffs than offense. Great defensive team win most of the time. Great, primarily, offensive teams almost never win the chip.

And then you have teams like the Spurs, Warriors , who realized you have to be superb on both ends.

Warriors can easily be dismissed as ''All Firepower Jump Shooting Team'

But when you see the kind of D they have with Klay, Dray, Iggy and KD, you just know it's not just Steph's GOAT level offense that won them two chips.
(Not that Iggy, KD, Klay and Dray lack much in the off department.)
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

came in to find people complimenting Chris Bosh did not lose to Dirk Nowitzki as a match up in the Mavs lone final run

was not disappointed
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Old 09-03-2017, 11:20 PM   #38
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

I rate Dirk higher than Malone.

What he did in 2011 was something Malone could never do, despite having a HoF guard for his entire career or chasing a ring in a star studded threepeat lakers squad
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:08 AM   #39
DMAVS41
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by Pointguard
No I'm not. I addressed this exactly as it was written:
"finding true clutch offensive talent is the highest premium in this sport."

You are not addressing that or me.

Dirk is not in the same realm as Russsell. Russell had a one of the best clutch shot makers ever on his team. And he delivered a lot more than Dirk did. Nobody even knows who he is. Gobert on a great defensive team can be seen as great but for now nobody is going to give him that. But defense is a much higher premium in the playoffs than offense. Great defensive team win most of the time. Great, primarily, offensive teams almost never win the chip.

Yes, you are.

Horry is not in the realm of a "true offensive talent"...he was a nice player that made some big shots as a role player. You are only focusing on the "clutch" part of that statement. Which, of course, Horry was...but he wasn't a "true offensive talent"...not even close.

I asked about Gobert...you give me Russell. A guy you never saw play.

It is a simple question...is Gobert or Dirk the better player? Please answer and don't dodge.

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 09-04-2017 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:12 AM   #40
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by BigKAT
And then you have teams like the Spurs, Warriors , who realized you have to be superb on both ends.

Warriors can easily be dismissed as ''All Firepower Jump Shooting Team'

But when you see the kind of D they have with Klay, Dray, Iggy and KD, you just know it's not just Steph's GOAT level offense that won them two chips.
(Not that Iggy, KD, Klay and Dray lack much in the off department.)

Is anyone arguing that defense doesn't matter? This seems like a straw man.

Also, you and PG seem to be conflating team defense with individual defense here.

One can, I'd argue rightly, think that great individual offense is more valuable than great individual defense...while also agreeing that quality team defense is almost always required to win titles.
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:18 AM   #41
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by BigKAT
And then you have teams like the Spurs, Warriors , who realized you have to be superb on both ends.

Warriors can easily be dismissed as ''All Firepower Jump Shooting Team'

But when you see the kind of D they have with Klay, Dray, Iggy and KD, you just know it's not just Steph's GOAT level offense that won them two chips.
(Not that Iggy, KD, Klay and Dray lack much in the off department.)
I think Steph and Durant are better than Dirk in nearly every way offensively.

And they are on a different tier as far as range, creating plays and being prolific. Yet I don't have any of those players as being consistent in the clutch as MJ or Magic. Which is why defense is more dependable, a constant Stable, and figures more into championships. In the biggest games Dirk, Durant and Steph aren't going to make most of the big plays. So defense, deflections, steals, possessions, smart plays figure more into wins every time unless you have a Jordan or Magic.

The Warriors have so many good players that its hard to play great defense against all of them at once but they have consistently have been great defensively as well. Lebron and them beat the 73 win team with defense.
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:23 AM   #42
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
No I'm not. I addressed this exactly as it was written:
"finding true clutch offensive talent is the highest premium in this sport."

You are not addressing that or me.

Dirk is not in the same realm as Russsell. Russell had a one of the best clutch shot makers ever on his team. And he delivered a lot more than Dirk did. Nobody even knows who he is. Gobert on a great defensive team can be seen as great but for now nobody is going to give him that. But defense is a much higher premium in the playoffs than offense. Great defensive team win most of the time. Great, primarily, offensive teams almost never win the chip.


Horry a clutch role player...hes not the caliber of a star though (and is pretty rare anyway for a role player to be that clutch). Most teams if they want to win need their stars to be elite closers. Look at Michael Jordan...that was what differentiated himself from all the other stars. (And why his team always won)
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:27 AM   #43
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Yes, you are.

Horry is not in the realm of a "true offensive talent"...he was a nice player that made some big shots as a role player. You are only focusing on the "clutch" part of that statement. Which, of course, Horry was...but he wasn't a "true offensive talent"...not even close.
Naaaah, He is the talent I want most in that situation. He has a great shot making talent.
Quote:
I asked about Gobert...you give me Russell. A guy you never saw play.
I seen more of Russsell than I saw of Gobert. I never saw either live. And I'm sure you haven't either.
Quote:
It is a simple question...is Gobert or Dirk the better player? Please answer and don't dodge.
Its irrelevant. Dirk has had teams built around his talent and weaknesses. Gobert hasn't. Its a silly comparison.
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:49 AM   #44
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

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Originally Posted by CuterThanRubio
Except you were asked about Steve Nash, a top 10 all time player at his position, that's not easy to find/
And what did Nash accomplish?

His teams were always like 1st or 2nd in ORTG but always really bad defensively and his teams could never really break through because of it. Just to compare, Nash's teams in Phoenix had ORTG's that were 114.5, 111.5, 113.9, 113.3, 113.6, 115.3 (GSW past 3 years have been 111.6, 114.5, 115.6). Nash's teams in Phoenix had basically the same potency as the Warriors, the difference was simply defense.

I think people are misunderstanding what I am saying. Amazing HOF offensive talent is way easier to find than amazing HOF defensive talent. I'm not saying that amazing HOF defensive talent is better than amazing HOF offensive talent.

The reason for that is HOF defensive talent is soooooooooooooooooooooooo hard to find.

It's like, growing up how do you even develop your defensive skills? You need to basically play in game situations to even practice it, whereas you can hone your offensive skills all by yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater
pretty much. Dirk being more valuable when they face up is probably the biggest indicator of that, since KG's greatest strength perhaps, his defense, is nullified and useless. Dirk simply has more offensive impact while KG's defensive edge is gone in a match-up since it's not doing anything to stop Dirk anyway.

Hence, Dirk's team wins 9/10 times.
All time Dirk is 20-17 against KG
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:50 AM   #45
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Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki Schools Kevin Garnett's Defense - 2002 Playoffs 1st Rd

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
Horry a clutch role player...hes not the caliber of a star though (and is pretty rare anyway for a role player to be that clutch). Most teams if they want to win need their stars to be elite closers.

Elite closers are requisites because of great defense, which is the ultimate in who wins championships. Finals MVP's are rarely these great closers you are talking about. Are they in high representation? No they aren't.

Quote:
Look at Michael Jordan...that was what differentiated himself from all the other stars. (And why his team always won)
I already said Jordan and Magic are the only two I saw that were consistent in making great plays but it was largely due to their superior smarts and passing that made this so. Steph, Dirk and Durant have played like eight years each before we can see consistency in being elite closers. Horry has hit way more big time shots than any of them. One could add them up together and they aren't approaching his big time shots. But he doesn't qualify right as being a big time clutch player. And there are very few who qualify for this. And you should have at least two great runs til the end to qualify for this. So Dirk isn't a sure in for me. Wade is a sure in for me and he couldn't shoot.

Last edited by Pointguard : 09-04-2017 at 12:58 AM.
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