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Old 10-03-2017, 10:52 AM   #46
UK2K
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by tpols
if you were selling to some dude you just met or somebody youve worked with for only a year or two how would you go about knowing all these things about them before selling?

I wouldn't, nor would I care.

It's illegal for THEM to own one.

Just like I don't care if I am selling a car to someone with a suspended license.
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:56 AM   #47
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by tpols
wait...so you can just sell a firearm to somebody without knowing anything about them? if theyre registered, qualified, competent to wield one etc. ?


Thats ****ing insane if true.

You can do whatever you want once its yours. You think all these maniacs are leaving a paper trail? Just go to arms list. Google it. See how broke you can be and how little paperwork you need to go kill 80 people. You could be on a third strike and high off a mix of antipsychotics and pain killers and buy a gun without a background check in a personal transaction.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:01 AM   #48
Patrick Chewing
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by r15mohd
there have been mental checks done enacted, however they've been lenient...and even with its leniency, they've been proven effective as the denial rates have increased due to it as many more have not checked out.

and if you feel you need to prove yourself fit to own a gun through lawyer, so be it...and if you win that case, you can then sue. win-win!

all i'm hearing is excuses to not do more from your end what initiatives do you have? i own, you own, is there issues you have in showing your responsibility to continue to do so - i don't, nothing to hide on my end. what are you afraid of, that you wont check out?

well guess what, if that's your scare - then maybe you're not fit to own


Please, your side never provides any logical ideas to improve gun safety and prevent these mass shootings. What information would a mental check give you? This guy displayed no prior behavior to say that he was prone to kill people.

So if I pass your "mental check" and a few years go by and I feel that life has just beaten me down and I'm tired of my nagging wife and I kill her one day. How could that have been prevented? I passed my exam, but I just "lost it" one day. There is no preventing that. And so far, the evidence points to this shooter just losing it.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:01 AM   #49
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by qrich
Outside of video evidence, or signing a bill of sale, it'd be pretty improbable to prove that the gun was, in fact, sold and not stolen. Nothing more than a he says, she says situation and with one party already being accused, how believable would they be?

if the person who is caught with the "stolen gun" can attest to the story and
it align with the owner of the gun, then there is nothing to worry over. if an owner is found to be lying in it being stolen, then severe felony charges will be enforced. it's a bit of a scare tactic to prevent it in the first place, but it's necessary to me...you impose heavy charges to indicating a gun is stolen, when in fact it was found to be sold illegally.

of course, it may still occur, and both the owner and new owner get away with it...but you recording it being stolen is already a red flag on your background, and let it happen again, and that can then show you being negligent to own a firearm yourself and not having it secruely locked away from any burglary (gun safe vs simply laying around. it can get in depth to what level but again, doing nothing is already negligence to what we're seeing now.

this has been thought up with similar instances in NOLA before...more particularly with stolen cars or broken into, and firearms being taken during the robbery. to me, a firearm left in you car unsecured is already a negligence and this parish has some good ideas to limiting the instances

Link: http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...er_of_a_s.html
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:09 AM   #50
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
Please, your side never provides any logical ideas to improve gun safety and prevent these mass shootings. What information would a mental check give you? This guy displayed no prior behavior to say that he was prone to kill people.

So if I pass your "mental check" and a few years go by and I feel that life has just beaten me down and I'm tired of my nagging wife and I kill her one day. How could that have been prevented? I passed my exam, but I just "lost it" one day. There is no preventing that. And so far, the evidence points to this shooter just losing it.

lol at your assuming. the vegas scenario is but a few days old but you, being the psychiatrist/psychologist you are, have already given the result in him checking out? let the facts run itself before indicating such

him purchasing so many firearms in general is reason for a "watch" on him, him being able to purchase so many semi-auto guns, as well is another indicator.

background check should not be a one and done deal...it is a renewable privalege, every 3-5yr? a standard of course based on adequate studies. if you trip off and do feel to commit a mass murder, guess what, something was done to actually prevent it. nothing is ever 100% preventable, however we can take steps to get as close as possible in making it so...whether it be 75% or 99%, pretty sure it's an improvement to what it is now.

and again, all you're doing is deflecting...you keep saying this wont work or that's a bad idea, yet no evidence to prove it -- i've given you studies that show mental screening has denied more applicants for firearms, theres also the NOLA initiatives as a way to prevent these instances.

what do you have to offer other than downplay doing more? full of excuses so far
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:10 AM   #51
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by UK2K
I wouldn't, nor would I care.

It's illegal for THEM to own one.

Just like I don't care if I am selling a car to someone with a suspended license.


nah theyres definitely a difference in liability between selling a gun and a car. If you sold to some wacko who purposely hurt somebody with it, and they traced the sale back to you, YOU should be held partially liable . The purpose of a car is to transport, and very rarely are they used as weapons. A gun...is a weapon. Thats literally what it is lol
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:12 AM   #52
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by tpols
nah theyres definitely a difference in liability between selling a gun and a car. If you sold to some wacko who purposely hurt somebody with it, and they traced the sale back to you, YOU should be held partially liable (and in most cases you would be).

Obviously...

But what if he doesn't tell me its to hurt someone? What if I sell a knife to someone and he stabs someone with it? Is that my fault?

If I sell propane tanks to someone and they turn them into a weapon, am I liable for that too? Is the fertilizer company liable for what Timothy McVeigh did?

Where's the line for where your liability ends?
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:14 AM   #53
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by UK2K
Obviously...

But what if he doesn't tell me its to hurt someone? What if I sell a knife to someone and he stabs someone with it? Is that my fault?

If I sell propane tanks to someone and they turn them into a weapon, am I liable for that too?

Where's the line for where your liability ends?


knowing there intent and ignoring it for your own gain of the sale over the potential harm the individual can cause

these instances have been proven in court...aiding a crime scenarios
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:14 AM   #54
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

the only thing we can do right now is to strap up when we go out in public.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:15 AM   #55
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpols
nah theyres definitely a difference in liability between selling a gun and a car. If you sold to some wacko who purposely hurt somebody with it, and they traced the sale back to you, YOU should be held partially liable (and in most cases you would be). The purpose of a car is to transport, and very rarely are they used as weapons. A gun...is a weapon. Thats literally what it is lol

This is why I say you have to work on supply. People will flat out tell you they don't care who they give guns to. You can't legislate the kind of morality or responsibility in question.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:19 AM   #56
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UK2K
Obviously...

But what if he doesn't tell me its to hurt someone? What if I sell a knife to someone and he stabs someone with it? Is that my fault?

If I sell propane tanks to someone and they turn them into a weapon, am I liable for that too? Is the fertilizer company liable for what Timothy McVeigh did?

Where's the line for where your liability ends?


It would have to be on a case by case basis... a fertilizer company doesnt know somebodys using their product for such nefarious means as that isnt its intended use...or anywhere close to it. You cant blame people for things like that or a car. Guns? They were invented for a primary purpose thats farirly obvious. Your hobby with them is a secondary purpose. Thats not why they were created. So the liability is much stronger. Its not that hard too grasp....youll just do anything to defend your guns.


and imagine the position you put yourself in then selling that without a background check... you acknowledge its a huge liability on yourself so why do it?
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:26 AM   #57
Patrick Chewing
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by r15mohd
lol at your assuming. the vegas scenario is but a few days old but you, being the psychiatrist/psychologist you are, have already given the result in him checking out? let the facts run itself before indicating such

him purchasing so many firearms in general is reason for a "watch" on him, him being able to purchase so many semi-auto guns, as well is another indicator.

background check should not be a one and done deal...it is a renewable privalege, every 3-5yr? a standard of course based on adequate studies. if you trip off and do feel to commit a mass murder, guess what, something was done to actually prevent it. nothing is ever 100% preventable, however we can take steps to get as close as possible in making it so...whether it be 75% or 99%, pretty sure it's an improvement to what it is now.

and again, all you're doing is deflecting...you keep saying this wont work or that's a bad idea, yet no evidence to prove it -- i've given you studies that show mental screening has denied more applicants for firearms, theres also the NOLA initiatives as a way to prevent these instances.

what do you have to offer other than downplay doing more? full of excuses so far

What deflecting? I want less gun violence just as much as you do, but what I don't want is these nonsensical measures. What would give the government the right to determine whether I'm mentally capable to obtain a firearm? What are the parameters? If I can drive a 2-ton vehicle, then surely obtaining a gun shouldn't be a problem.

I agree that mental health is the sole cause of most of these mass shootings, but testing these individuals prior to them obtaining weapons would be inconclusive and you may deny a perfectly sane individual the ability to own a gun. Everyone is wired differently.

What we need is more research into mental health. We need more asylums, more medicine, more everything. Less violence on TV, video games, music, all that stuff. It's easy to influence people nowadays.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:27 AM   #58
Orlando Magic
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I feel like I'm arguing with talking points used against arguments I'm not making.

...
...

If all you do is price out a lot of young morons who think guns and gun ownership shouldn't be taken serious you save thousands of lives.

Not really. Your overall point and kinda the crux of your argument from what I can tell is to enact further gun regulation to save lives and you've yet to address where the lines of regulation stop when protecting people beyond guns... and I'm saying why are we just stopping at guns? Because it's in your face carnage as opposed to silent killers such as heart disease? This seems to be an emotional argument from your point rather than a completely logical one.

As I said, I'm not saying you're wrong... I'm saying I want to know where your lines are for regulating personal freedoms as you put it... because I don't have a hard line stance in any direction because I think there's some level of gray here I think.

Force feeding your kids fast food is abusive to their personal well being imo and yet we as a country do it on the daily without anyone so much as batting an eye because it's not graphic in your face carnage stirring up emotions despite the that fast food kills way way more people than guns. As I said, this is seemingly an emotional reaction to gun violence rather than a calm logical approach to saving lives.

Where do you stop regulating people in the name of saving lives? It's that simple of a question. Where are the lines?

Last edited by Orlando Magic : 10-03-2017 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:46 AM   #59
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

I already explained it. I'm not talking about regulating your personal health because it's just that. Guns are not internal. The next guys man boobs are not going to hurt anyone innocent. I am talking to you about hundreds of thousands of innocent people going about their business and being murdered or maimed. There is considerably more reason to discuss that than what people do to themselves. I don't care much about what anyone does to themselves. I wouldn't care if all drugs were legal if being addicted to them didn't make you a threat to me and my family.

When your whopper knocks an innocent kids head off his shoulders I'll worry about you eating it. Far as your children? I'm going to call that another subject as well. If you want to go down that line we can take it way past food. If people stop forcing religion on their children that would save.....well no. Let's not open that can of worms.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:58 AM   #60
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Ok so what about knives?

Is the point that pulling the trigger is an easy way to kill people without it being too personal and easy to do in mass?

If so I'm not going to disagree, I just want to know your lines...

Because there are far bigger issues in this country than gun violence in terms of saving lives but it's extremely sensational and eye catching which is why we are talking about it... which is stupid imo.

Saving lives isn't your agenda, saving the lives of people directly harmed by someone else in a way you deem unacceptable seems to be... that's fine so long as we agree saving lives ultimately isn't the predominant underlying sentiment.
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