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Old 10-05-2017, 01:23 AM   #106
Cleverness
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer

"mass shootings" lol man such a huge problem here in the US when thousands are dying in places like Chicago LA and NY and nobody sayin shit. anyways

There were maybe 1 million guns in the hands of the people of Australia. Now they are in the hands of the gov't.

There are more than 300,000,000 guns in the US.

this is a public service announcement: "ok guys plz turn in guns to mr donald trump. you can trust him to handle the guns from here on out."

yeah, GOOD LUCK getting all the bad guys to turn in their guns. again, 300,000,000 guns. and we have dangerous trucks too!
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:51 AM   #107
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

"team safety" is more likely to be about fitting airport-style security in more and more places, and it becoming normal for people to be subjected to such things on a continuous basis.


I wonder who will be making bank from all this? Oh yeah, the guy who helped to author the PATRIOT Act and who is already known for exploiting tragedies to line his own pocket (Chertoff).
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:46 AM   #108
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Done properly....you eventually wouldn't need much security. Really....lets look at an extreme example....

Lets say that a gun cost....20 thousand dollars. A regular every day pawn shop handgun, shotgun, or rifle. Eventually....after many years....you price out the low level knuckleheads who do most of the killing. You make a gun too valuable to lose in a stupid mistake. You don't stop the maniacs but you take a chunk out of murders if only by making only big operations have the money for a real arsenal.

The question is....where is the sweet spot where you price out poor gangsters and idiot rednecks and still have access to people willing to be rational?

Over time you could save a lot of lives just by limiting ammo, artificially inflating the value of guns, and putting away people who use them violently for long stretches.

You would be hated by the left for harsh guidelines and by the right for obvious reasons...but it would help. You just couldn't stay in power for the 20 years it would take to matter.
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:50 AM   #109
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Done properly....you eventually wouldn't need much security. Really....lets look at an extreme example....

Lets say that a gun cost....20 thousand dollars. A regular every day pawn shop handgun, shotgun, or rifle. Eventually....after many years....you price out the low level knuckleheads who do most of the killing. You make a gun too valuable to lose in a stupid mistake. You don't stop the maniacs but you take a chunk out of murders if only by making only big operations have the money for a real arsenal.

The question is....where is the sweet spot where you price out poor gangsters and idiot rednecks and still have access to people willing to be rational?

Over time you could save a lot of lives just by limiting ammo, artificially inflating the value of guns, and putting away people who use them violently for long stretches.

You would be hated by the left for harsh guidelines and by the right for obvious reasons...but it would help. You just couldn't stay in power for the 20 years it would take to matter.

Again, how did that work during the drug war?

You can 3D print a gun in a few minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz8mlB1hZ-o

Government going to confiscate 3D printers, too?
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:06 AM   #110
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

How did what work during on the drug war? Pricing people out through taxation?

And are you really talking to me about 16-year-old drug dealers 3-D printing up massive numbers of guns?

I swear on this subject your side often sounds like the lazy type who at like since getting a job won't fix all their problem they might as well not. You try to chip away at the issue you don't take the fact that no solution is perfect to mean you don't try to solve problems in the first place. You do better. Are you really against any effort to do better? You going to explain why every effort would not cure human violence and suggest anyone attempting to lessen the problem is wasting their time?
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:13 AM   #111
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
How did what work during on the drug war? Pricing people out through taxation?

And are you really talking to me about 16-year-old drug dealers 3-D printing up massive numbers of guns?

I swear on this subject your side often sounds like the lazy type who at like since getting a job won't fix all their problem they might as well not. You try to chip away at the issue you don't take the fact that no solution is perfect to mean you don't try to solve problems in the first place. You do better. Are you really against any effort to do better? You going to explain why every effort would not cure human violence and suggest anyone attempting to lessen the problem is wasting their time?
WTF?

No, not at all.

I'm saying trying to legislate drugs out of existence has done absolutely nothing. Trying to legislate guns out of existence (when people can print them at home in a few minutes) just seems like its going to have the same result.

I've yet to hear a legitimate argument as to why the result is going to be any different. Until I do, then you're suggesting we pass laws just for the hell of it.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:07 AM   #112
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UK2K
WTF?

No, not at all.

I'm saying trying to legislate drugs out of existence has done absolutely nothing. Trying to legislate guns out of existence (when people can print them at home in a few minutes) just seems like its going to have the same result.

I've yet to hear a legitimate argument as to why the result is going to be any different. Until I do, then you're suggesting we pass laws just for the hell of it.

Couldn't printer manufacturers just code the printers to make printing a gun impossible (or very difficult without advanced knowledge)? That regulation could be part of any gun bill passed.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:15 AM   #113
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by Jailblazers7
Couldn't printer manufacturers just code the printers to make printing a gun impossible (or very difficult without advanced knowledge)? That regulation could be part of any gun bill passed.

I don't know how they work, but from the guns I've seen printed, they simply print a small section at a time and then install any parts afterwards.

Not sure how you could restrict a printer from printing, say, a hand guard or butt stock or any number of parts.

Cause the gun isn't printed all at once, it's printed in small parts and then assembled. Again, I don't know anything about these, but I'd imagine that'd be extremely hard to regulate.

And I would assume that once you have the 'blueprint' to print these, there's nothing anyone can do remotely to stop you. In my mind, the blueprint would simply be on a flash drive, you put the drive into a computer, and then the printer starts printing these parts off one at a time.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:03 PM   #114
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

When my original premise was that there are way too many guns to just ban them how do you get to thinking I'm trying to legislate guns out of existence? Can we have a real discussion on the words each of are actually saying?

Let's try to lay down some ground rules we both accept. Points from each that the other does not dispute.I'll give you one and you give me one.

If you were able to gradually but considerably raise the price of guns through additional taxation and reducing long-term supply by limiting the manufacture and import even if people kept doing it illegally the additional risk and hassle would drive prices up enough to keep guns out of the hands of some but not all low-level criminals.

Can we agree on that?
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:13 PM   #115
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
When my original premise was that there are way too many guns to just ban them how do you get to thinking I'm trying to legislate guns out of existence? Can we have a real discussion on the words each of are actually saying?

Let's try to lay down some ground rules we both accept. Points from each that the other does not dispute.I'll give you one and you give me one.

If you were able to gradually but considerably raise the price of guns through additional taxation and reducing long-term supply by limiting the manufacture and import even if people kept doing it illegally the additional risk and hassle would drive prices up enough to keep guns out of the hands of some but not all low-level criminals.

Can we agree on that?

I mean, eventually, as in like 100 years from now? Yeah, I would think so.

There are 300,000,000 guns in the US, and restricting them would only make people like me money. Once the price of my Glock hit 5k, I'd just sell it to whoever was willing to pay. Scratch the serial number off, and voila.

But I think the only thing that would keep guns out of the hands of criminals is a LACK of supply, of which, there will never be. Price doesn't really matter, especially when you can buy a pistol now for $200 brand new, or $50 on the street.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:31 PM   #116
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer


You continue to prove you are such a moron that just rinses and repeats idiotic statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverness
"mass shootings" lol man such a huge problem here in the US when thousands are dying in places like Chicago LA and NY and nobody sayin shit. anyways

There were maybe 1 million guns in the hands of the people of Australia. Now they are in the hands of the gov't.

There are more than 300,000,000 guns in the US.

this is a public service announcement: "ok guys plz turn in guns to mr donald trump. you can trust him to handle the guns from here on out."

yeah, GOOD LUCK getting all the bad guys to turn in their guns. again, 300,000,000 guns. and we have dangerous trucks too!

Basically. Ignoring the rest of the reasons why the Australian situation is different, along with the fact that the murder rate by gun was dropping at a faster percentage before the gun ban versus after, armed robberies being up, home invasions skyrocketing, and aggravated assaults as well.

The buy-back program that the government imposed had anywhere from 20-25% of the guns in circulation to civilians taken out.

For that to happen in the U.S., that equates to around 60-75,000,000 to be "bought back."

Good luck with that.

Last edited by qrich : 10-05-2017 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:37 PM   #117
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

So I think a few decades and you think 100 years but we agree that it would reduce the availability of these weapons to the low-level criminals. So you agree something can be done. My question now is if you agree that something can be done....why does it feel like you don't want anything done?

What kind of decline in the deaths of innocent people would you feel justified whatever inconvenience you think my measures would bring about?

We both know you will save a bunch of people but I'm not going to ask you to choose between dead two-year-olds and higher gun prices. I want to know what you think about it without the over emotional guilt trip side of the argument.

How much general carnage would have to be reduced for you to be OK with the measures I've suggested?

Is it more an issue of having a problem with the principles at work?
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:01 PM   #118
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
So I think a few decades and you think 100 years but we agree that it would reduce the availability of these weapons to the low-level criminals. So you agree something can be done. My question now is if you agree that something can be done....why does it feel like you don't want anything done?

What kind of decline in the deaths of innocent people would you feel justified whatever inconvenience you think my measures would bring about?

We both know you will save a bunch of people but I'm not going to ask you to choose between dead two-year-olds and higher gun prices. I want to know what you think about it without the over emotional guilt trip side of the argument.

How much general carnage would have to be reduced for you to be OK with the measures I've suggested?

Is it more an issue of having a problem with the principles at work?

How many lives would seat belt laws save? A lot. Do I care if someone kills themselves because they didn't want to wear a seat belt? No.

To answer your question, I don't think gun violence is a problem for the VAST MAJORITY of the country. I really dont. Outside of a dozen small areas, this doesn't effect many people.

But then I ask, well if we legislate fat people have to exercise an hour each day, how many lives would that save? A hell of a lot more than 8k a year. So should we do that too?

Should we legislate sugary drinks out of the market? What about fast food? We could save MILLIONS by outlawing fast food. Not thousands. Millions.
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Old 10-05-2017, 01:19 PM   #119
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

And again we cross over from legislation against one hurting themselves....and hurting others. If a root beer could shoot my friend in the head and make one of the most athletic guys I knew into a cripple while he sat in a car minding his own business I'd say we need to phase them out. We aren't talking seat belts. We are talking brakes.

We really making no distinction between the right to hurt oneself and the right to access to weapons used for offense?

We saying the law should work no harder to save you from a psycho than it does to save you from your own decisions?
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:20 PM   #120
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

NRA comes out against bump stocks:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/1...ent-law-243500

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41519815
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