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Old 10-06-2017, 08:35 PM   #16
aj1987
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
If a defender doesn't get the rebound, there's a better than 50/50 chance someone else on his team did.
It works both ways. Both are equally important. That's my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
I don't get what is stupid about GmSc. Apart from the fact that Kobe doesn't do well by this measure. But then Kobe rates pretty low by most statistical measures.
Aside from the fact that it has Barkley in pretty much the top 3 in every list?

Again, Barkley, overall, might be ~20 at best as a PO performer. I know that you love to use GmSc to prop up Barkley, but lets be real here.

As PO performers in no particular order:

Shaq
MJ
LeBron
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Wade
Kobe
Dirk
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
KG
Hondo
Durant
Curry
Russell
West
Dr. J
Moses

Last edited by aj1987 : 10-06-2017 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:04 PM   #17
Round Mound
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Barkley was one of the goat play-off performers.
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
It works both ways. Both are equally important. That's my point.


Aside from the fact that it has Barkley in pretty much the top 3 in every list?

Again, Barkley, overall, might be ~20 at best as a PO performer. I know that you love to use GmSc to prop up Barkley, but lets be real here.

As PO performers in no particular order:

Shaq
MJ
LeBron
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Wade
Kobe
Dirk
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
KG
Hondo
Durant
Curry
Russell
West
Dr. J
Moses

You're obviously trying to bait me here with this list. Half these guys obviously never had as many great playoff games as Barkley. And those that did, usually played way more playoff games, which is the whole point of the list - its how regularly they produced great performances, not just how many they have in total. I know you don't rate Barkley, but there is no denying he had a LOT of epic playoff performances.

What's wrong with a stat that rates a game of 56 / 14 / 4 / 3 / 1 as the highest scoring playoff game of the last 34 years? How many guys on your list have a better playoff game to their credit?

Should Barkley's 44 / 24 in game 7 of the 1993 WCF rate highly all time? Or his 43 / 15 / 12 in game 5 of the same series? Or his 37 / 14 / 9 / 1 / 3 ECSF game 4 in 1986?

Should I continue? Do games of 47 / 12 / 2 / 2 / 2 or 36 / 19 / 7 / 4 / 1 not deserve to be rated highly? How about 35 / 10 / 2 / 7 / 3 or 42 / 13 / 4 / 1 / 1?

Every single one of Barkley's games that are included in OP, he had 30+ points and 10+ rebounds... except for one game in which he had only 9 boards, but he scored 39 points on 19 shots. In the 'worst' game of his that is included, he had 30 and 20, including 9 offensive rebounds, with 4 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks!

KG never scored more than 35 points in a playoff game, and yet you rate him higher than Chuck as a playoff performer!?

Barkley was an ATG playoff performer and OP proves it.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:52 AM   #19
aj1987
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
You're obviously trying to bait me here with this list. Half these guys obviously never had as many great playoff games as Barkley. And those that did, usually played way more playoff games, which is the whole point of the list - its how regularly they produced great performances, not just how many they have in total. I know you don't rate Barkley, but there is no denying he had a LOT of epic playoff performances.
All of them are overall better PO performers than Barkley and that's pretty much a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
What's wrong with a stat that rates a game of 56 / 14 / 4 / 3 / 1 as the highest scoring playoff game of the last 34 years? How many guys on your list have a better playoff game to their credit?
So, you're saying that's an ATG PO game because of the stat line, but how did Barkley do on the defensive end?

The team barely won the game and gave up 133. The players I listed would be putting up insane AF stats, if they had the luxury of pretty much standing in the corner on the defensive end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
Should Barkley's 44 / 24 in game 7 of the 1993 WCF rate highly all time? Or his 43 / 15 / 12 in game 5 of the same series? Or his 37 / 14 / 9 / 1 / 3 ECSF game 4 in 1986?
That's cool and all, but Barkley was never a very good PO performer. The guy NEVER 30 PPG in a PO run, and his MAX was 27.6 PPG. Also, he only crossed 30 PPG TWICE in his entire career in 2 series and the guy got swept both times.

Should I continue? Do games of 47 / 12 / 2 / 2 / 2 or 36 / 19 / 7 / 4 / 1 not deserve to be rated highly? How about 35 / 10 / 2 / 7 / 3 or 42 / 13 / 4 / 1 / 1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
Every single one of Barkley's games that are included in OP, he had 30+ points and 10+ rebounds... except for one game in which he had only 9 boards, but he scored 39 points on 19 shots. In the 'worst' game of his that is included, he had 30 and 20, including 9 offensive rebounds, with 4 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks!

KG never scored more than 35 points in a playoff game, and yet you rate him higher than Chuck as a playoff performer!?

Barkley was an ATG playoff performer and OP proves it.
Sure, KG never scored more than 35 in a PO game, but he also never gave up 60 points on the defensive end. KG is one of the greatest defenders ever.
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Old 10-07-2017, 04:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked_Up_Tonight
The stat makes offensive rebounding more important that defensive rebounding when in reality defensive rebounding is far more important.
wtf is this. Of course a player gathering an offensive rebound is far more valuable than if he gather a defensive rebound.
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Old 10-07-2017, 06:54 AM   #21
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
All of them are overall better PO performers than Barkley and that's pretty much a fact.


So, you're saying that's an ATG PO game because of the stat line, but how did Barkley do on the defensive end?

The team barely won the game and gave up 133. The players I listed would be putting up insane AF stats, if they had the luxury of pretty much standing in the corner on the defensive end.


That's cool and all, but Barkley was never a very good PO performer. The guy NEVER 30 PPG in a PO run, and his MAX was 27.6 PPG. Also, he only crossed 30 PPG TWICE in his entire career in 2 series and the guy got swept both times.

Should I continue? Do games of 47 / 12 / 2 / 2 / 2 or 36 / 19 / 7 / 4 / 1 not deserve to be rated highly? How about 35 / 10 / 2 / 7 / 3 or 42 / 13 / 4 / 1 / 1?


Sure, KG never scored more than 35 in a PO game, but he also never gave up 60 points on the defensive end. KG is one of the greatest defenders ever.

You're just talking out of your ass now. Obviously Barkley's big asset was his offense, but you just love overstating his defensive deficiencies. In the 20-odd games in OP, he averaged 10 defensive boards 2.4 steals and 1.4 blocks. How does a guy do that by standing in the corner on D. All of these numbers are as good or better than his career peak RS and PO. So his best offensive performances coincided with increased effort on D.

And the two series he averaged over 30 he swept the other team... He wasn't swept.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
wtf is this. Of course a player gathering an offensive rebound is far more valuable than if he gather a defensive rebound.

Many coaches would disagree. Defensive rebounding and stopping possessions is way more important than getting an extra possession. In fact many coaches don't even want the offensive players to "crash" the glass but instead get back on defense. Carlisle is one that has used that approach since 08.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:58 PM   #23
aj1987
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
You're just talking out of your ass now. Obviously Barkley's big asset was his offense, but you just love overstating his defensive deficiencies. In the 20-odd games in OP, he averaged 10 defensive boards 2.4 steals and 1.4 blocks. How does a guy do that by standing in the corner on D. All of these numbers are as good or better than his career peak RS and PO. So his best offensive performances coincided with increased effort on D.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...nse/vp-BBAB28o

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
And the two series he averaged over 30 he swept the other team... He wasn't swept.
Yeah, that's my fault. 3 game samples and 2 series in his ENTIRE career in which he scored over 30 PPG. For a guy as dominant offensively as you claim, he sure should've had more, right?

Anyways, point out who Barkley was better than in the PO's from this list.

Shaq
MJ
LeBron
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Wade
Kobe
Dirk
Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
KG
Hondo
Durant
Curry
Russell
West
Dr. J
Moses
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:16 PM   #24
AussieSteve
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987

So volunteering to guard MJ is standing in the corner. And a bit of trash talk by MJ is your evidence that Chuck's dominant offense during his best PO performances was helped by not playing D. I think I'll just go with the evidence rather than an anecdote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
Yeah, that's my fault. 3 game samples and 2 series in his ENTIRE career in which he scored over 30 PPG. For a guy as dominant offensively as you claim, he sure should've had more, right?

Anyways, point out who Barkley was better than in the PO's from this list.

Shaq
MJ
LeBron
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Wade
Kobe
Dirk

Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
KG
Hondo
Durant
Curry

Russell
West
Dr. J
Moses

Bold and underlined - Barkley was clearly the better PO performer.
Bold - Barkley was equal as a PO performer.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:01 PM   #25
Round Mound
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
So volunteering to guard MJ is standing in the corner. And a bit of trash talk by MJ is your evidence that Chuck's dominant offense during his best PO performances was helped by not playing D. I think I'll just go with the evidence rather than an anecdote.



Bold and underlined - Barkley was clearly the better PO performer.
Bold - Barkley was equal as a PO performer.



NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

NBA/ABA

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.88
4. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.13
5. Chris Paul 25.75
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tim Duncan 24.28
8. Charles Barkley* 24.18

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

NBA/ABA

1. Michael Jordan* .2553
2. George Mikan* .2541
3. LeBron James .2411
4. Kawhi Leonard .2095
5. Chris Paul .2093
6. Magic Johnson* .2078
7. Jerry West* .2031
8. Wilt Chamberlain* .1998
9. David Robinson* .1992
10. Stephen Curry .1989
11. Tim Duncan .1939
12. Walt Frazier* .1934
13. Charles Barkley* .1932

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Box Plus/Minus

1. LeBron James 10.76
2. Michael Jordan* 10.12
3. Chris Paul 8.48
4. Stephen Curry 7.52
5. Magic Johnson* 7.35
6. Charles Barkley* 7.28


Charles Barkley is in the TOP 10-15 Range All Time and Much Closer to MJ than Kobe is. Kobe is only close to MJ in "Style of Play" NOT in LEVEL OF PLAY, DOMINANCE OR EFFICIENCY.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Did barkley makes teammates better and play defense? No.

That's why his numbers are watered down.....
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:55 AM   #27
AussieSteve
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
percentage of ALL playoff games isn't fair since there are people like Hakeem who played in the playoff until way past his prime while there are people like Jordan who retire just at the end of his prime.

It should be playoff games in their primes only.

I agree, but its difficult to decide on a definition for prime. And primes are different for different players. Also it would be very manual to pull the data to make such a list.

Hakeem got all his 30+ GmSc games from 86 to 95. So did Barkley. That's 10 seasons. So if we just rank players based on the percentage of 30+ GmSc playoff games during their best 10 seasons we get...

1. Jordan - 35.04
2. Barkley - 23.17
3. Hakeem - 21.57
4. Shaq - 18.66
5. LeBron - 18.48
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:11 AM   #28
Round Mound
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
I agree, but its difficult to decide on a definition for prime. And primes are different for different players. Also it would be very manual to pull the data to make such a list.

Hakeem got all his 30+ GmSc games from 86 to 95. So did Barkley. That's 10 seasons. So if we just rank players based on the percentage of 30+ GmSc playoff games during their best 10 seasons we get...

1. Jordan - 35.04
2. Barkley - 23.17
3. Hakeem - 21.57
4. Shaq - 18.66
5. LeBron - 18.48



Basically Their Primes and Peaks ages 22-32.
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Old 10-08-2017, 01:41 PM   #29
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Its insane to think that barkley was a xlearly better po performer than wade or dirk. Sry.
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Old 10-08-2017, 02:08 PM   #30
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Default Re: Greatest playoff performers

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
So volunteering to guard MJ is standing in the corner. And a bit of trash talk by MJ is your evidence that Chuck's dominant offense during his best PO performances was helped by not playing D. I think I'll just go with the evidence rather than an anecdote.
What evidence? Pretty much every single person in the world, who has watched Barkley play or played with him, do not consider him to be a good defender. Heck, the vast majority consider him to be a trash defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieSteve
Bold and underlined - Barkley was clearly the better PO performer.
Bold - Barkley was equal as a PO performer.
I really think you need to get your head checked if you think Barkley was a better PO performer than any of them.

Ignoring everything else, Barkley was equal to Bird and Duncan as a PO performer? What are you smoking, bro?
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