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Old 11-09-2017, 06:54 PM   #1
bladefd
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Default Changing shooting style

I see a lot of clowning here concerning Lonzo's shot and so I thought I would look into what it takes to change jumper form.

How difficult is it to change your shooting form?? I heard 10,000 shots is minimum required to truly change your shooting form at the professional level, and a lot of it is simply altering your muscle memory aka mental so you don't revert back to your old style.

Can most players even easily change their motion or is it very difficult ordeal once you reach the pros? I was curious. I knew it took Kawhi Leonard a whole year to tweak his jumper with the Spurs. His jumper used to be horrendous before they worked to alter it so I decided to look into it.

I found 1 interesting article on kawhi from some interview with Spurs shooting coach.

Quote:
Tell me about your first dealings with Kawhi Leonard?
Chip Engelland: “I guess we can start from the beginning, before the draft. I walked into pre-draft camp, and Kawhi wasn’t scheduled to work out. He was getting tested. Some of the players will take a few shots, just because there are baskets there. I evaluate shooters for the draft. A lot of them, I have to watch on film. It’s nice when you get to watch it in person. I happened to walk in, and he happened to take shots literally right when I walked in. I got to see it in person. We all talked (as a staff). I felt his shot didn’t need a full makeover. With just a tune-up, he could become a very good shooter, if not great shooter.”

Engelland: “What helped with Kawhi … the previous year, Richard Jefferson, we had changed his shot. He had a similar shot, behind his head. The draft happened and Kawhi comes here, and we have to talk to him. A shot’s very personal. It’s not easy to change your shot. We came up with a couple things, and he was all ears. He wants to get better. We saw that right away. He was very interested in improving. I showed him pictures of Richard, and pictures of himself. They both had this (mimics the behind-the-head form). Richard was 30 years old when he changed his shot. We thought Kawhi could change, too. And then we used Kobe Bryant. We both grew up in Southern California. He grew up watching Kobe play. Kobe has a beautiful form, technically really sound. We used him as a model – that release point and shot. Those four days, he practiced and said, OK I’m going to take this and do it over the summer.”

And of course, the lockout hits a week after he’s drafted, and you’re not going to be able to help at all during that time. So you send him off with what instructions?
Engelland: “Just to be patient, not get too down. Don’t try to push it out to the 3-point line at first. I remember the first year here, he was just getting comfortable on the wings. You don’t want to rush and try to get results in one day. He has that way about him. He will work hard over a long period of time for a goal. He’s a throwback in the way that he doesn’t need immediate satisfaction. He knew the benefits would be down the road.”

Once your shooting form is down, you can add other moves to your repertoire.

Quote:
Once you start adding other pieces to his game – drives and post-ups and turnaround jumpers, etc – do you ever have to come back to the shooting form, to make sure there’s no slippage?
Engelland: “When I worked with Grant Hill many moons ago, the next step is when to do what. He had a lot of different skills. When to post, when to do the turnaround, when to do the jump-hook, when to shoot the 3, and when to drive. Mixing is the hardest thing. It’s like a great pitcher – when do I throw the curve, or the change-up. It’s very tough. That takes years and years of honing, in games.”

It's an incremental change and not something you do overnight.

Quote:
Is that the point in the project where Kawhi is right now?
Engelland: “Just how to mix – when to drive, when to mix, when to pass, when to shoot again, when to post up. That all just takes time and experience. Because you have to do all that within your team game. You can’t just run roughshod over your teammates to try to do that. It’s tough because he’s testing things. I think his scoring average has gone up each year – not by 10 points, but 2 or 3 points each year. Just nice, solid incremental improvement.”
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/s...nd-6636495.php

Videos showing how much smoother Kawhi's shot became: https://fansided.com/2017/05/10/kawh...hot-nba-draft/

Lonzo's shooting needs different tweak than Kawhi because his release is not the main issue (release is smooth). It's that he needlessly goes left to right with left arm, which is very slow and clunky. Release could be a little bit higher so he can get more arch on the shot. It's mostly the left to right motion that needs to change.

Lonzo compared to the greatest shooter in history.. Curry's right elbow is straighter and he has higher release. Lonzo doesn't need a complete shot makeover tbh. Angle has to change a bit by maybe 15 degrees and raise his release up higher.. Most of it is altering muscle memory over thousands of shots



Thoughts?
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:01 PM   #2
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

It's not just a hitch. He holds the ball on the wrong side. He'd have to change just about everything, including how he jumps. His entire balance would be out of whack while he learns.

I wonder if he's ambidextrous, and could learn to shoot lefty. At least he wouldn't have to move the ball to other side of his head.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

It's not just his form, it's the fact that he brings the ball from the left while he is shooting with his right hand. It takes ages for him to put a shot up. He needs to just about change everything in his shooting motion.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Spurs shooting coach, Engelland deserves a max contract. One of the Spurs gems.

As for Lonzo, I say give it until March. I believe itís all mental at this point. Terrible way to start your career with a slump but he should continue to take his 3s. He needs to work more on his handle and finishing imo. His game will open up more if he can actually breakdown someone in the halfcourt and finish. Heís got the tools.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Drew
It's not just his form, it's the fact that he brings the ball from the left while he is shooting with his right hand. It takes ages for him to put a shot up. He needs to just about change everything in his shooting motion.

So it's his form, then. Agreed.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando Magic
So it's his form, then. Agreed.
I don't like this response, I'm going to have to put you on the ignore list.

Look how he jumps, look from where he brings the ball. That is not form, clown.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

His form will age fine over time he just needs strength and experience but Doesnt every NBA teenager?
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Drew
I don't like this response, I'm going to have to put you on the ignore list.

Look how he jumps, look from where he brings the ball. That is not form, clown.
It's not just his form, it's also his form
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Drew
I don't like this response, I'm going to have to put you on the ignore list.

Look how he jumps, look from where he brings the ball. That is not form, clown.

I don't put people on ignore that I simply disagree with. I put people on ignore that can't have a conversation or discussion or argument in which their mind can ever be altered. I put religious fanatics(NBA religion fyi) that ALSO happen to be completely ****ing moronic on ignore, that's true. People I disagree with that ARE NOT complete mouth breathing morons, I keep talking to. Take yourself.. I disagree with you a lot... you're not a mouth breathing moron, not going on ignore. See the difference?

The fact that he consistently brings the ball from a certain spot in putting up his shot... well... that very VERY CLEARLY makes that... part of his form... what is a form? A form is a routine/repetitive motion in how you get the ball up and out and towards the rim.

Is Steph Curry's quick gather and upward motion not part of his form?

What is a form by your definition? Once it reaches your hips? Once it reaches your chest? Once it reaches your neck? No. It's all form. Every last bit of it.

You are wrong. All of it is form.

Last edited by Orlando Magic : 11-09-2017 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFonzworth
It's not just his form, it's also his form

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Old 11-09-2017, 07:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcastic
It's not just a hitch. He holds the ball on the wrong side. He'd have to change just about everything, including how he jumps. His entire balance would be out of whack while he learns.

I wonder if he's ambidextrous, and could learn to shoot lefty. At least he wouldn't have to move the ball to other side of his head.

The alternative is to keep working on improving what he has.

I think he can still do something minor like raise his release up higher to like where Curry does. I don't think he has to completely do a makeover like you suggest to THAT level. He can still continue to hold the ball up on that side but simply raise his hands up higher to add more arch to his release. I know the speed will still be slow, but it's not completely a lost cause to have slow release.. He will never be as fast or smooth as Curry but does he have to be? If he can just get 40% overall and 33% from 3pt, that's fine tbh..
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

the sooner he changes his shooting form the better. Whatever he has right now won't work, ever
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

When I was younger and lacking in upper body strength I shot similar to Curry with a two handed push shot.

I would say it took about two years to get from that to the textbook Allan Houston/Ray Allen/ Klay Thompson form with similar accuracy.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Changing shooting style in your nba career can be fg% suicide.

Its so hard to alter muscle memory from what youve been doing as a kid. But if lonzos form sucks anyways probably wouldnt hurt
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: Changing shooting style

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezingTsmoove
His form will age fine over time he just needs strength and experience but Doesnt every NBA teenager?
Well he needs to change his shooting form, or edit it. Whatever you'd like to call it. Relying on it as is is not a good idea.

It's a shame the Laker show is such a cluster phuck organization. Lonzo would do wonders to play 1-3 games on the D league and get some consistency there. He would come back a lot stronger. But it's seen as a huge negative and they went all in with the sales pitch, so they don't want do it. Don't want to hurt the brand, so lets hurt the player instead.
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