Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-08-2018, 06:07 AM   #1
iamgine
...
 
iamgine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 14,206
Default Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Perhaps his resume lacks some accomplishment to make him the greatest player of all time.

But when you consistently watch him play, does he strike you as the best of all time, on par with the likes of MJ?
iamgine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 06:16 AM   #2
Proctor
College superstar
 
Proctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,254
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

No.

Games like last night against the Nuggets remind me he's really really good, but he's not even close to MJ.
Proctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 06:33 AM   #3
Manny98
Rookie of the Year
 
Manny98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 5,115
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

LeBron is the best all around player of all time and anyone who disagrees are biased Kobe/MJ/Wilt stans.
Manny98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 06:59 AM   #4
Odinn
I make 50-feet jumpers
 
Odinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,137
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

I don't see why not. His peak up there. His prime up there. His longevity up there. Sure he's record in the NBA Finals is a bit sour for him, especially compared to Jordan. But he's 4x MVP, 3x FMVP, all-team and all-d selections are there.
If you want to claim he's the #1, I would stand against it. But there's nothing wrong with putting him tier 1.
Odinn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 07:21 AM   #5
Micku
NBA rookie of the year
 
Micku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,936
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Of course. He's like one of the rare players whose peak and prime matches with MJ.
Micku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 07:29 AM   #6
3ball
NBA Legend
 
3ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 17,380
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku

Of course. He's like one of the rare players whose peak and prime matches with MJ.

Lebron never did this:




The GIF above says MJ scored 46% of Bulls' points in the 4th quarter during 1988 regular season - it was taken from a Bulls-Rockets telecast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiBQ05cXt04&t=0m21s


Bulls averaged 105.0 PPG in 1988 season, so let's assume 1/4 of that was scored in 4th quarter, or 26.2 points..

46% of 26.2 fourth quarter points is 12.1 points - that's a good estimate of MJ's fourth quarter scoring average in 1988.. By comparison, he averaged 9.6 points in 4th quarter of 1997 playoffs, and 9.0 points in 1998 playoffs - these stats are from nba.com's official stats.

Also, Elias Sports Bureau lists the highest 4th quarter scoring averages in the Finals (it's googleable), and Jordan's 1993, 1997, and 1998 Finals rank as 3rd, 4th, and 5th all-time, at 10.7, 10.4, and 10.3 points, respectively.

By comparison, Lebron averaged 8.1 points in 4th quarter during the 2015 playoffs, which we all know was his highest scoring playoffs ever, with by far the most shot attempts he's ever taken in the playoffs.

From 2011 to 2014, Lebron averaged 6.3, 7.3, 7.4, and 5.8 points in the 4th quarter of playoffs, respectively.. Again, this is from nba.com's official stats..


PHIL JACKSON
"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not time YET."

https://youtu.be/nOgJhzj4W9M
[/i]
Apparently, phil felt that clutch time was entirely MJ time..And the stats show that MJ did indeed carry the largest 4th quarter burden of all time:

(Click link and scroll all the way to the right to locate stat:)

..............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM PTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER ON FLOOR


........................RS......RS 4th.... PO.....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0..... 40.1..... 37.7..... 46.3...... 40.9...... 50.4 <-- links nba.com
JORDAN 1998... 36.3..... 42.1..... 39.7..... 48.8...... 43.6...... 49.1

LEBRON 2012... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2016... 31.5..... 36.7..... 30.2..... 35.2...... 33.9...... 47.1
LEBRON 2017... 29.6..... 33.5..... 32.2..... 37.4...... 31.8...... 30.0


These are the most telling stats available showing how much more MJ controlled 4th quarters, and how his burden increased from the RS, to playoffs, to Finals

MJ averaged 5 more PPG in the playoffs and also regular season as a Bull, while both MJ and Lebron shot 57% TS in the playoffs (mj was 1.5 less TS in RS, but im sure lebron fans would trade 1.5% for 5 ppg)..

So if a guy averages 5 more ppg on equal efficiency while winning 6 rings in 13 playoff runs, with #1 all-time in PER and ws/48.. That guy's goat
3ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 07:45 AM   #7
sportjames23
GOAT
 
sportjames23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,088
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

If Lebron consistently did what he did last night vs the Nuggets against great teams, I might be inclined to agree with his stans about him being GOAT-worthy. But too many times, Lebron has shrunk on the biggest stages vs the best teams.

It's funny, tho, to see his stans get hyped over him lighting up an average team. MJ dropping 50 on the Clippers never really got me hyped. The Clips back then were no challenge. But MJ dropping 40-50 on teams like the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Knicks, etc...that's what GOATness was all about.
sportjames23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 07:45 AM   #8
fourkicks44
Long Live The Process
 
fourkicks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Hinkie's Apple Orchard
Posts: 3,999
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

What an original thread OP

I have never seen a debate such as this on this message board.....
fourkicks44 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 07:46 AM   #9
Kblaze8855
Titles are overrated
 
Kblaze8855's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 19,185
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

The way people generally rank players by "greatness" I dont see how he has a case. Not when guys like MJ, Russell, and Kareem have both more MVPs and double the rings.

He has a more compelling case for best instead of greatest....but thats not easily made either. At least not to people who have seen a lot of the games history.

Well not most at least. There are HOF coaches ive heard say they arent sure he isnt the best ever. So it isnt exclusively a youth argument....but from me personally.....

One league?

Hakeem at his best...Jordan at his best....Bird and Magic at theirs? Maybe toss in Shaq. And you throw peak Lebron in? Maybe 2013...or 2016 if thats your pick?

I would not see Lebron as top 3. You could start the argument for #4....but I wouldnt agree then either.

Which isnt even considering the likes of Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. Russell and Wilt you have a "Well vs modern players we dont know...." argument to make....Kareem? He was killing guys who were still in the NBA like...Yao Ming.

Plus some guys like Kobe, Duncan, KG, David Robinson and so on who in career seasons no matter what you think....would have some people saying they were ahead of Lebron.

Feel free to disagree....but NBA coaches ranked Drob ahead of Jordan and Kareem. I heard it from their mouths. Think its impossible for someone to think Drob is better than Lebron when hes a 30/11/4 block 2 steal DPOY on a 60 win team?

Remember....a few people had Dwight as best in the league at one point. It wasnt unheard of.

An awful lot of people could get ranked ahead of Lebron everyone at their best.

Id say hes a tier 3 all time great but the second tier isnt many players. You could say low end tier two if you want.
Kblaze8855 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 08:03 AM   #10
ArbitraryWater
... on a leash
 
ArbitraryWater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: I walk a higher path, son
Posts: 34,008
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Its not even close at this point.

His all-around skills are unparalleled.
ArbitraryWater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 08:25 AM   #11
3ball
NBA Legend
 
3ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 17,380
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micku

Of course. He's like one of the rare players whose peak and prime matches with MJ.

Jordan' stats from 87-93' regular season are better than the best 7-year stretch for lebron:

Jordan 87-93': 33.2 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.1 apg.. 2.9 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 59.0 ts.. 30.4 PER
Lebron 08-14': 28.0 ppg.. 7.6 rpg.. 7.1 apg.. 1.7 stl.. 0.8 blk.. 60.6 ts.. 30.1 PER


I'm sure lebron fans would trade 1.5% ts for 5 ppg and greater clutch


https://www.basketball-reference.com...3-sum:per_game
https://www.basketball-reference.com...3-sum:per_game
3ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 08:27 AM   #12
sportjames23
GOAT
 
sportjames23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,088
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Jordan' stats from 87-93' regular season are better than the best 7-year stretch for lebron:

Jordan 87-93': 33.2 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.1 apg.. 2.9 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 59.0 ts.. 30.4 PER
Lebron 08-14': 28.0 ppg.. 7.6 rpg.. 7.1 apg.. 1.7 stl.. 0.8 blk.. 60.6 ts.. 30.1 PER


I'm sure lebron fans would trade 1.5% ts for 5 ppg and greater clutch


https://www.basketball-reference.com...3-sum:per_game
https://www.basketball-reference.com...3-sum:per_game


sportjames23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 08:40 AM   #13
Manny98
Rookie of the Year
 
Manny98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 5,115
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Jordan' stats from 87-93' regular season are better than the best 7-year stretch for lebron:

Jordan 87-93': 33.2 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.1 apg.. 2.9 stl.. 1.0 blk.. 59.0 ts.. 30.4 PER
Lebron 08-14': 28.0 ppg.. 7.6 rpg.. 7.1 apg.. 1.7 stl.. 0.8 blk.. 60.6 ts.. 30.1 PER


I'm sure lebron fans would trade 1.5% ts for 5 ppg and greater clutch


https://www.basketball-reference.com...3-sum:per_game
https://www.basketball-reference.com...3-sum:per_game
Give me the more efficient scorer,better plamaker,better rebounder,better defender,less selfish ,easier to build around,more versatile,requires less help to win and the one who performs better against elite defenses.
Manny98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 09:00 AM   #14
3ball
NBA Legend
 
3ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 17,380
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny98
Give me the more efficient scorer,better plamaker,better rebounder,better defender,less selfish ,easier to build around,more versatile,requires less help to win and the one who performs better against elite defenses.
Needed less help to win?

Since when did lebron win with a role player at 3rd option like jordan's first 3-peat?

Lebron always needed a perennial all-star and s
all-nba pf as his 3rd option
3ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2018, 09:02 AM   #15
aj1987
MH!
 
aj1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 21,671
Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Needed less help to win?

Since when did lebron win with a role player at 3rd option like jordan's first 3-peat?

Lebron always needed a perennial all-star and s
all-nba pf as his 3rd option
LeBron won a ring with Wade averaging 15 PPG in the PO's. The lowest Pippen ever averaged was 17 PPG and that couple with DPOY level defense.
aj1987 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:


Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:03 PM.






NBA BASKETBALL FORUM KEY LINKS:

NBA Basketball

NBA Rumors

Basketball Blog

NBA Videos

Search Site

FOLLOW US
Twitter
Facebook
Instagram
YouTube
















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy