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Old 03-08-2018, 07:31 PM   #46
PickernRoller
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Top 15.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:11 PM   #47
Ainosterhaspie
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Is he up there with the best? Not is he the best, just is he in the same general vacinity. Let's count rings since that's so popular. Russell(11) Jordan/Kareem(6), Magic/Kobe/Duncan(5), Shaq(4). That's seven guys from the sixties forward. How many were the most valuable player in the finals more times than LeBron? Only Russell and Jordan. Where does he fit amongst these guys? Worst case they are all ahead of him and he's sitting at 8. You want to drop him down the list further? You have to put a guy over him that has fewer finals MVPs and the same or fewer titles.

People that want to say he's outside the top ten or fifteen are really reaching. Let's say he's top 8. Isn't that up there with the best. Why is this topic descending into LBJ vs. MJ? It's not about whether he's above or below him, it's about if he's among the best. There isn't much of an argument to say he isn't. He got titles, MVPs, advanced stats and raw stats all pointing to him being one of the rarest and accomplished players ever. Yes he is up there with the best.
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:22 PM   #48
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainosterhaspie
Is he up there with the best? Not is he the best, just is he in the same general vacinity. Let's count rings since that's so popular. Russell(11) Jordan/Kareem(6), Magic/Kobe/Duncan(5), Shaq(4). That's seven guys from the sixties forward. How many were the most valuable player in the finals more times than LeBron? Only Russell and Jordan. Where does he fit amongst these guys? Worst case they are all ahead of him and he's sitting at 8. You want to drop him down the list further? You have to put a guy over him that has fewer finals MVPs and the same or fewer titles.

People that want to say he's outside the top ten or fifteen are really reaching. Let's say he's top 8. Isn't that up there with the best. Why is this topic descending into LBJ vs. MJ? It's not about whether he's above or below him, it's about if he's among the best. There isn't much of an argument to say he isn't. He got titles, MVPs, advanced stats and raw stats all pointing to him being one of the rarest and accomplished players ever. Yes he is up there with the best.

You say that Russel and MJ only have more FMVP than Lebron but you are missing a glaring fact which is when they didn't win the FMVP in the series they played in, then who did? Go take a look at who exactly did Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, and Shaq lose their FVMP's to, then compare where those players rank to guys like Kawhi, Iggy, Parker, and Dirk. Apply some context.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:16 AM   #49
Ainosterhaspie
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

That's such a lame argument. In 2015 it was obvious LeBron was the best player on the court. He got multiple FMVP votes. He had trash teammates and still got two wins off a 67 win team that won 73 the next year. He had to play almost every minute of that series and led all players in points, rebounds and assists and this was clearly an off year for him.

But the finals MVP almost always (there's only been one exception in league history) goes to someone on the winning team, so they picked the guy that "held" LeBron to just under 40 points. Anyone who tries to use that series as argument against LeBron has no credibility.

Didn't Kobe "lose" FMVPs to Chauncey Billups and Paul Pierce, not just Shaq. Billups beat Shaq and Kobe. What a stud. Didn't Duncan get shown up in his prime by Tony Parker by your logic and then later by Leonard. You must view that as being pathetic. Magic "lost" a FMVP to Joe freaking Dumars and James Worthy. Better drop him out of the top ten.

I mean seriously dude there is so much self contradiction in that post. You're using another one of these lame manufactured arguments people use to dismiss LeBron and only LeBron. It's not applied to anyone else. It just circles back to Jordan was perfect in the finals. He's the only one. Hooray for him. The question here isn't about where he and LeBron place compared to each other so that doesn't even matter.

There are only two guys in the history of the NBA who led their teams, as the clear best player on their team during the finals, to more titles than LeBron. So yes, by that measure LeBron is up there with the best.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:53 AM   #50
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by egokiller
You say that Russel and MJ only have more FMVP than Lebron but you are missing a glaring fact which is when they didn't win the FMVP in the series they played in, then who did? Go take a look at who exactly did Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, and Shaq lose their FVMP's to, then compare where those players rank to guys like Kawhi, Iggy, Parker, and Dirk. Apply some context.

Bird lost a finals MVP to Cedric Maxwell, a guy who isn't even in the HOF yet I don't hear anyone use that against him when his name is brought up.

All this "He lost a finals mvp to this guy" talk is utter nonsense, just people grasping for straws.
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:12 AM   #51
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Been watching hoops since the early 80's...

I have Lebron at #2 behind Mike.

But to me Mike, especially '88-'90, is the clear #1.
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Old 03-09-2018, 02:16 AM   #52
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Of course he's up there. His stretch from 2012 to 2016 may well be the best five year stretch by a single player in the history of basketball. In terms of his all-around ability, there may be no one on his level. Who is the best is subjective at the end of the day and depends on your criteria. It's also impossible IMO to compare players at different positions and playing in different eras with any kind of objective rigor. There are simply too many variables that can be analyzed at any which way.
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:44 AM   #53
Johnni Gade
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

He has a case. Ill pick him second so far. Lets see whats happens the next 2-3 seasons.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:00 AM   #54
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauk
Yes... when you put it like that (basketball ability), he is up there with Jordan, different games tho... im sure most would prefer Jordan tho as he was a smaller more nimble guy with more of a score first mentality = more aesthetically pleasing and ofcourse nostalgia as most of us grew up with him...

Lets just say they are the best at their position...

PG - Magic
SG - Jordan
SF - Lebron
PF - Duncan (kinda couldnt enjoy his game tho, so simple stuff, but so effective, big guys are kinda like that... liked KG more, who has a case here)
C - Hakeem

Are overall the most talented players ive seen at each position.
this is a difficult list to disagree with.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:06 AM   #55
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

i think mj excelled too much at scoring and defense whilst playing within a framework of rules to have his case seriously challenged right now.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:41 AM   #56
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Best player of all time to not live up to his potential. Name another player in the Top 10 discussion with a worse Finals record.

That’s not even mentioning he’s had the most stacked teams of all time, all while playing in the weakest conference since the 3 point line was added to the game.
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Old 03-12-2018, 06:45 AM   #57
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFraud James
Best player of all time to not live up to his potential. Name another player in the Top 10 discussion with a worse Finals record.

Thatís not even mentioning heís had the most stacked teams of all time, all while playing in the weakest conference since the 3 point line was added to the game.
MJ is 1-9 withough Pippen and making the PO's on 34 and 30 win teams.
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Old 03-12-2018, 07:55 AM   #58
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1987_Lakers
Bird lost a finals MVP to Cedric Maxwell, a guy who isn't even in the HOF yet I don't hear anyone use that against him when his name is brought up.

All this "He lost a finals mvp to this guy" talk is utter nonsense, just people grasping for straws.

Yes, there was an FMVP lost to Maxwell and another lost to Dumars, but the rest of the FMVPs that were lost were to other top 10 all time players. Now compare that to losing it to guys like Kawhi, Iggy, & Tony Parker. The truth hurts, I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj1987
MJ is 1-9 withough Pippen and making the PO's on 34 and 30 win teams.

Making playoffs as rookie with no all-star > not making playoffs as rookie with all-star
1-9 > 0-2
6/6 > 3/8

50+ win teams beat in post season:

Lebron 14
MJ 20

FMVP losses to other players:

MJ 0
Lebron - Kawhi, Parker, Dirk, Iggy, KD


Poor lebron is inferior in every scenario. Definitely didn't live up to his potential.

Last edited by egokiller : 03-12-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:29 PM   #59
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Top 20 is pretty decent in the scheme of things, good on him.

Im back
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:19 PM   #60
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Default Re: Is Lebron up there in the best player of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhi m8
Top 2 is pretty decent in the scheme of things, good on him.

Im back

Agreed
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