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Old 06-13-2007, 11:34 PM   #31
poeticism707
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

[Quote:
Originally Posted by OneWay
I will never consider Duncan greater than Shaq, no matter how many rings he wins.

Shaq at his best was a lot better than Duncan at his best. Shaq was a true dominating force. Duncan was/still is a silent assassin and gets the job done but Shaq was flat out dominant.

IMO, Shaq will always be greater. Now, speaking of charisma and how they revolutionized the game and a huge edge goes to Shaq.

Yes, Duncan may achieve more but people should always remember Shaq as better because he simply was better. Easy as that. I don't give a rats ass about achivements, I know Shaq was a better player at his best and has many achievements too if that's what you care about the most.

Shaq is the answer for me.
[/quote]

This is the type of no-critical thinking, brainwashed, enslaved mentality I've been addressing mostly. "ESPN said Shaq is greater, so he is! Shaq makes ignorant, sweeping statements, so they're true! Shaq told me to jump off a bridge, and I'm halfway down!" What else can I say? Have fun watching TD win title after title, and trying to still explain how Shaq is so much "greater."
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:58 PM   #32
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldNugg21
You annoy me greatly. The guy used the exact same argument you use every time, except he highlighted Shaq's statistical advantages instead of Duncan's, and pointing out issues in the Spurs title runs instead of the Lakers. So you call him an idiot, say he has no logic, and call him biased. Well guess what? Your arguments are completely parallel. Everything he did is exactly what you did.

In addition, you completely throw out any non statistical arguments, simply because they automatically favor Shaq. He was just so dominant in his prime that it's ridiculous to claim that Duncan was better than him. And if you're arguing careers, well they are basically equal, and as I just noted Shaq had a stretch where he was arguably the most dominant player ever to play the game.

And for your defensive argument, it amazes me how you just throw numbers out there and claim Duncan >>>>>> Shaq. Duncan may be the better defender, but it is alot easier for a player who plays like a center, the position that gets the most respect defensively, to win defensive first teams among 2 slots and without their stiffest competition. Shaq, never advertised as a defensive force (although especially early in his career he was very good), had to go against much better competition for one spot. Those awards mean almost nothing.

Once again you display a pretense of basketball, but show it is surface level only, and you really don't know anything. Out of all of TD first team all defense (7) there was only arguably one forward that would have maybe won over Duncan, and that is KG during his MVP year. Meaning Tim Duncan never utilized the "2nd forward position" pretty much 6 out his 7 first team all defense elecions, and absolute minimum of 5 out of 7. Meaning he still embarrasses Shaq in first team all defense elections. Also, don't think I'm simply "relying on numbers", anyone wih any basketball knowledge knows Tim Duncan is 10x the defender Shaq is - guards the switch on guars on pick and rolls, defends big men, blocks shots, is top tier in position defense historically- the numbers simply reflect that, and not even that well (TD should have multiple DPOY awards by now).

Lastly Shaq and Duncan's careers aren't equal, because Tim Duncan is greater. Shaq's +4points on his career ppg average isn't enough to make up for TD's offenisve AND defensive output combined. Again, TD is greater, and it's not close.
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Old 06-14-2007, 12:06 AM   #33
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

This is probably one of the few topics on here that has helped to shape my opinion on these two players.
Before this both of them were in my top 10 with Shaq with a hefty lead. But this topic has brought them to a near deadlock in my opinion. The factors that separate them are:
Duncan is a way better defensive player. 15-20% better free throw shooter.
Shaq beat him, plenty.
So those are your two factors in deciding who's the better player.
Shaq's prime he is much more dominant than Duncan. But you can't give strikes to Duncan because Shaq's knees can't hold up.
I love Duncan but i'm going to have to go against all of my basketball philosophy and take the dominating prescence that is Shaq by a hair.
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Old 06-14-2007, 12:40 AM   #34
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

I'm of the opinion that you cannot just look at stats. Why, because the Spurs team is notorious for making their top players sacrifice stats. Apparently in Pop's system, during the regular season top players are only allowed 14 shots....

I think in the end, Shaq is incredibly dominant but I think that I will still take Duncan, if I were given the choice..

Why? because Duncan is the better teammate, and he takes care of himself better physically...Plus, Duncan's more loyal.. So that's why you take Duncan. Duncan will have more championships than Shaq at the end of his career, and yes that does matter. Especially when you consider that Shaq had Kobe and Wade, and Duncan didn't.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:03 AM   #35
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Honestly couldnt read more than 5 lines of that assasination on the english language. FFS... IP ban LeBron23 already. He honestly would have to try to sound that bad.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

you duncan ****** go cry a river or write poetry

its shaqs fault, he had the chance to win more rings had he put more effort into his career...how many opportunities in life and green passes do you guys wanna give out? seriously.

Duncan is takn the opportunity to succeed in his career, his an opportunists.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:58 AM   #37
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY
you duncan ****** go cry a river or write poetry

its shaqs fault, he had the chance to win more rings had he put more effort into his career...how many opportunities in life and green passes do you guys wanna give out? seriously.

Duncan is takn the opportunity to succeed in his career, his an opportunists.

I rather like writing poetry!
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:03 AM   #38
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed6
This is probably one of the few topics on here that has helped to shape my opinion on these two players.
Before this both of them were in my top 10 with Shaq with a hefty lead. But this topic has brought them to a near deadlock in my opinion. The factors that separate them are:
Duncan is a way better defensive player. 15-20% better free throw shooter.
Shaq beat him, plenty.
So those are your two factors in deciding who's the better player.
Shaq's prime he is much more dominant than Duncan. But you can't give strikes to Duncan because Shaq's knees can't hold up.
I love Duncan but i'm going to have to go against all of my basketball philosophy and take the dominating prescence that is Shaq by a hair.

You stated that Shaq "beat Duncan plenty," which is erroneous or wrong. In head to head matchups in the playoffs, Tim Duncan beat Shaq twice enroute to 2 titles; Shaq beat Duncan twice enroute to 2 titles. Overall Shaq owns the head to head matchup at 3-2 (and it took a Derek Fisher Miracle, that took 1.1 seconds when there was only .4 seconds of game time left!). Again, Shaq has the edge, barely. Shaq did not "beat Duncan plenty."
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:11 AM   #39
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

I dont know how anyone can watch shaq in the 2001 playoffs, and not say that he is better than Duncan at any stage of Duncans career.

I just dont see how a sane person can say that. Yeah they both have great stats. But after that season, many thought shaq was top 3 ever.
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:12 AM   #40
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

dude was just FEROCIOUS. I have seen nothing like it, just a dominant spectacle to behold
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:18 AM   #41
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

30 points, 15.5 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 3.5 assists, 15 wins one loss in 01 playoffs. And the stats dont show the whole story. A few 40/20 games thrown in. Multiple double/triple teaming. Excellent competition. Massive intimidation factor.

Show me a Tim Duncan that competes with this.
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:20 AM   #42
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Quote:
Originally Posted by poeticism707
You stated that Shaq "beat Duncan plenty," which is erroneous or wrong. In head to head matchups in the playoffs, Tim Duncan beat Shaq twice enroute to 2 titles; Shaq beat Duncan twice enroute to 2 titles. Overall Shaq owns the head to head matchup at 3-2 (and it took a Derek Fisher Miracle, that took 1.1 seconds when there was only .4 seconds of game time left!). Again, Shaq has the edge, barely. Shaq did not "beat Duncan plenty."
Don't start with retwisting logic to woulda, coulda, shoulda then complain about me retwisting it back at you.

Before Derek hit his shot, it took a miracle, sideways, fadeaway, by Duncan, that went in with .4 seconds left.



Retwist the logic and this is what you get.

No Strike
No Duncan Injury
No Wade Injury

Final Results

Shaq 8 Finals 6 Championships
Duncan 3 Finals 2 Championships

Head to Head

Shaq 6
Duncan 1

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Old 06-14-2007, 03:22 AM   #43
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-train
30 points, 15.5 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, 3.5 assists, 15 wins one loss in 01 playoffs. And the stats dont show the whole story. A few 40/20 games thrown in. Multiple double/triple teaming. Excellent competition. Massive intimidation factor.

Show me a Tim Duncan that competes with this.

Three great seasons by Shaq (or one) don't equal Tim Duncan's overall excellence. Again, please compare their stats and accomplishments I listed in this thread and counter argue if you are so inclined.
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:25 AM   #44
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Town-Raised
Don't start with retwisting logic to woulda, coulda, shoulda then complain about me retwisting it back at you.

Before Derek hit his shot, it took a miracle, sideways, fadeaway, by Duncan, that went in with .4 seconds left.



Retwist the logic and this is what you get.

No Strike
No Duncan Injury
No Wade Injury

Final Results

Shaq 8 Finals 6 Championships
Duncan 3 Finals 2 Championships

Head to Head

Shaq 6
Duncan 1


YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! That's why I don't play these games. Shaq and his Lakers won that game, NO EXCUSES! I was being facetious. Again, Shaq won that series, no complaints or excuses. Unless TD or Shaq did not play, there are no excuses. As it stands now, TD is far ahead of Shaq as shown. Excellent point, D-Town!

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Old 06-14-2007, 03:39 AM   #45
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Default Re: HOW CAN people compare SHAQ&DUNCAN and say Jordan>Russel????

Quote:
Originally Posted by poeticism707
Three great seasons by Shaq (or one) don't equal Tim Duncan's overall excellence. Again, please compare their stats and accomplishments I listed in this thread and counter argue if you are so inclined.


Three great seasons.

Go look at the stats from Shaq's second year in the league. Shaq has 10 seasons all better then Duncan's best season. There is no argument other then Shaq didn't play enough games in 4 of those seasons.

Look at the stats from Shaq's second year in the league.

29.3 13.2 2.4 2.9

Shaq's second year in the league is better then Duncan's M.V.P. year.

Look at Shaq's Rookie Season

23.4 13.9 1.9 3.5

That is his rookie year and is as good as Garnett and Duncan's M.V.P. years.

Shaq was in the finals in 95 00 05.

Shaq has been excellent his whole career. Not for a three year period.
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