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Old 09-11-2018, 06:56 AM   #1
Kblaze8855
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Default If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

I was watching the Blazers play the Lakers in 1984 yesterday(Yes...thats the kind of shit I do) and hearing them talk about not having an answer for the Lakers inside. They did have a center(Klay Thompsons dad) but he was undersized and so was their other option Calvin Natt(good player but probably like 6'5''....rugged guy...think Faried at his peak).

If the Lakers(76ers and Celtics too) are the team everyone needs to beat I see why you think this summer...we need a great center. The best teams all kill us inside. And faacing Kareem/Worthy, Mchale/Bird/Parish, and Moses you might be right. But of course that leads them to draft Bowie over Jordan. They didnt need a swingman with Drexler and Paxson(who was a LOT better than his brother....Jim was all NBA at the time). But they let need top talent. You watch the 84 draft they arent just excited to have Bowie. You can see the Bulls staff giddy he dropped. But they were trying to build to compete with LA who was insane inside with Kareem, Worthy, and Mcadoo(who ate them up off the bench).

Other teams were trying to build just for the Lakers too. The Mavs mainly. Few remember them but they were the upstarts out west who were obsessed with LA. Pushed them to 7 once.

I get why you feel you need to build to beat the top dog at the moment. If you lose to them in the conference finals what does it matter who else you can beat?

But think about it through history? It isnt usually the teams built for the super teams that knock them off.

In the 60s the 76ers were built just for the Celtics and they did it. Once. LA traded for Wilt to do it....failed.

In the 80s the Mavs and Blazers set out to beat LA. The Rockets kinda stumbled into it twice getting lucky with obvious picks to match Kareem inside(Hakeem and before that Moses from the ABA). They were not just built for that matchup. Maybe the Rockets....kinda. But anyone who got #1 would have taken Hakeem in 84.

The Mavs and Blazers were just built for LA and both failed. The Suns came out of nowhere and beat LA for the Blazers.

In the 90s the Knicks and Pacers were built to stop the Bulls. Who did it? The Magic. Well the Knicks did it without Jordan but...you know what I mean.

2000s? The Kings and Blazers both lived to beat the Lakers. Didnt work out. Spurs just built their way...beat them. Pistons too. Pistons were just a gritty ass team built to play D but not specifically to stifle the Lakers.

The Heat came together to beat Boston I suppose but they really didnt have to. Well they did...but Boston was falling off with injury. And the Mavs knocked off the Heat. Not by design...just worked out that way first year they were together.

The Bulls and Pacers were the Heats arch rivals tinkering just to beat them. Never did.

The Warriors now? The rockets admitted they are obsessed with them. Got close...but didnt. Might take a step back this year. Might not....but you betting on a team with Melo on it defending the Warriors well to close out a series?

Based on history...id say you need to just get the team the way you want to play and add the best talent you can. Forget what anyone else is doing. a lot of these teams eventually fall off on their own then youre left with a squad designed to beat a team youre already better than while a new power has taken hold who you arent equipped to match.

Im sure it is hard to go talent over need in the draft and free agency but....how many teams get burned trying to fill a hole and not just get the best player?

A good coach can make redundant talent work. You dont just take inferior guys because you have a big bad wolf to beat. Thats how you get Hasheem Thabeet #2 overall(instead of several hall of famers) because the Lakers have Gasol and Bynum and you feel like thats gonna be a problem for 8-9 years.

So...

If you are a western conference Gm right now and your owner wants a ring and is prepared to spend whatever it takes....

Are you specifically shooting for the Warriors like the Rockets or doing your own thing and letting the chips fall as they may? I might...might...have to go the "**** Golden State..." route and do my own thing.
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:58 AM   #2
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Kevin Durant is leaving GSW next year anyway
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I was watching the Blazers play the Lakers in 1984 yesterday(Yes...thats the kind of shit I do) and hearing them talk about not having an answer for the Lakers inside. They did have a center(Klay Thompsons dad) but he was undersized and so was their other option Calvin Natt(good player but probably like 6'5''....rugged guy...think Faried at his peak).

If the Lakers(76ers and Celtics too) are the team everyone needs to beat I see why you think this summer...we need a great center. The best teams all kill us inside. And faacing Kareem/Worthy, Mchale/Bird/Parish, and Moses you might be right. But of course that leads them to draft Bowie over Jordan. They didnt need a swingman with Drexler and Paxson(who was a LOT better than his brother....Jim was all NBA at the time). But they let need top talent. You watch the 84 draft they arent just excited to have Bowie. You can see the Bulls staff giddy he dropped. But they were trying to build to compete with LA who was insane inside with Kareem, Worthy, and Mcadoo(who ate them up off the bench).

Other teams were trying to build just for the Lakers too. The Mavs mainly. Few remember them but they were the upstarts out west who were obsessed with LA. Pushed them to 7 once.

I get why you feel you need to build to beat the top dog at the moment. If you lose to them in the conference finals what does it matter who else you can beat?

But think about it through history? It isnt usually the teams built for the super teams that knock them off.

In the 60s the 76ers were built just for the Celtics and they did it. Once. LA traded for Wilt to do it....failed.

In the 80s the Mavs and Blazers set out to beat LA. The Rockets kinda stumbled into it twice getting lucky with obvious picks to match Kareem inside(Hakeem and before that Moses from the ABA). They were not just built for that matchup. Maybe the Rockets....kinda. But anyone who got #1 would have taken Hakeem in 84.

The Mavs and Blazers were just built for LA and both failed. The Suns came out of nowhere and beat LA for the Blazers.

In the 90s the Knicks and Pacers were built to stop the Bulls. Who did it? The Magic. Well the Knicks did it without Jordan but...you know what I mean.

2000s? The Kings and Blazers both lived to beat the Lakers. Didnt work out. Spurs just built their way...beat them. Pistons too. Pistons were just a gritty ass team built to play D but not specifically to stifle the Lakers.

The Heat came together to beat Boston I suppose but they really didnt have to. Well they did...but Boston was falling off with injury. And the Mavs knocked off the Heat. Not by design...just worked out that way first year they were together.

The Bulls and Pacers were the Heats arch rivals tinkering just to beat them. Never did.

The Warriors now? The rockets admitted they are obsessed with them. Got close...but didnt. Might take a step back this year. Might not....but you betting on a team with Melo on it defending the Warriors well to close out a series?

Based on history...id say you need to just get the team the way you want to play and add the best talent you can. Forget what anyone else is doing. a lot of these teams eventually fall off on their own then youre left with a squad designed to beat a team youre already better than while a new power has taken hold who you arent equipped to match.

Im sure it is hard to go talent over need in the draft and free agency but....how many teams get burned trying to fill a hole and not just get the best player?

A good coach can make redundant talent work. You dont just take inferior guys because you have a big bad wolf to beat. Thats how you get Hasheem Thabeet #2 overall(instead of several hall of famers) because the Lakers have Gasol and Bynum and you feel like thats gonna be a problem for 8-9 years.

So...

If you are a western conference Gm right now and your owner wants a ring and is prepared to spend whatever it takes....

Are you specifically shooting for the Warriors like the Rockets or doing your own thing and letting the chips fall as they may? I might...might...have to go the "**** Golden State..." route and do my own thing.
Memphis really failed when they drafted Thabeet but that wasn't a great draft class.
I'd say only Curry and Harden will make the HOF.
I guess they expected Mayo to be an All Star.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:10 AM   #4
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep-itreal
Kevin Durant is leaving GSW next year anyway
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:11 AM   #5
chains5000
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

If I remember correctly, early 2000s Hawks did the opposite and kept drafting wings: Marvin Williams, Childress, Diaw, while missing players like Chris Paul or Deron Williams. And giving JJ that contract too.

And let's not forget Toronto drafting Villanueva or Bargnani while having Bosh on their roster.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I was watching the Blazers play the Lakers in 1984 yesterday(Yes...thats the kind of shit I do) and hearing them talk about not having an answer for the Lakers inside. They did have a center(Klay Thompsons dad) but he was undersized and so was their other option Calvin Natt(good player but probably like 6'5''....rugged guy...think Faried at his peak).



2000s? The Kings and Blazers both lived to beat the Lakers. Didnt work out. Spurs just built their way...beat them. Pistons too. Pistons were just a gritty ass team built to play D but not specifically to stifle the Lakers.


Based on history...id say you need to just get the team the way you want to play and add the best talent you can. Forget what anyone else is doing. a lot of these teams eventually fall off on their own then youre left with a squad designed to beat a team youre already better than while a new power has taken hold who you arent equipped to match.

Im sure it is hard to go talent over need in the draft and free agency but....how many teams get burned trying to fill a hole and not just get the best player?

A good coach can make redundant talent work. You dont just take inferior guys because you have a big bad wolf to beat. Thats how you get Hasheem Thabeet #2 overall(instead of several hall of famers) because the Lakers have Gasol and Bynum and you feel like thats gonna be a problem for 8-9 years.

So...

If you are a western conference Gm right now and your owner wants a ring and is prepared to spend whatever it takes....

Are you specifically shooting for the Warriors like the Rockets or doing your own thing and letting the chips fall as they may? I might...might...have to go the "**** Golden State..." route and do my own thing.

Lakers in the 2000's 3-peated (=Spurs failed to beat them), played like an extra 40 games as compared to the Spurs. Shaq was dealing with injuries and lack of dedication and other veterans were getting tired so I don't think Spurs actually beat them fair and square.
Pistons beat the Lakers with BOTH Malone and Grant injured leaving Slava Medvedenko to "guard" Sheed Wallace while Kobe relentlessly bricked his shots....
I think Thabeet looked good in the NCAA and Memphis assumed he'll develop but he didn't.
There is a fine line really to simply design or build teams specifically to beat a dynasty because you have to win consistently first to get a position to advance. Houston last year were poised to really challenge GSW but CP3... again somehow gets injured ... Lakers this summer seemed to try to get players to give it a run by getting tough minded defenders for face the vaunted Warriors but it will remain to be seen if they have enough firepower to complete the task.
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Old 09-11-2018, 02:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

You always build to beat a dynasty. But in order to do so you must have a solid core first.

There's no point in building to beat a dynasty if you even fail to go far enough to face them (See: 2018 Thunder). In most cases teams built to topple a dynasty face off with them, but sometimes injuries and bad luck get in the way (See: 2004 Kings)
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Old 09-11-2018, 02:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigShotBob
You always build to beat a dynasty. But in order to do so you must have a solid core first.

There's no point in building to beat a dynasty if you even fail to go far enough to face them (See: 2018 Thunder). In most cases teams built to topple a dynasty face off with them, but sometimes injuries and bad luck get in the way (See: 2004 Kings)

What is the point of building to beat a dynasty if your team will take 3+ years in order to ferment by which time that dynasty will probably have run its course?

Lets use the Suns for example. They clearly aren't winning shit the next 3 years at least but they have a solid young core. By the time they are ready (if that is the case), GSW will have finished its run.

Makes no sense to build to beat the current dynasty unless you're already a contender.
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Old 09-11-2018, 05:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Quote:
Originally Posted by superduper
What is the point of building to beat a dynasty if your team will take 3+ years in order to ferment by which time that dynasty will probably have run its course?

Lets use the Suns for example. They clearly aren't winning shit the next 3 years at least but they have a solid young core. By the time they are ready (if that is the case), GSW will have finished its run.

Makes no sense to build to beat the current dynasty unless you're already a contender.

Yea, that was sort of my point.

Build a stable core and then add some pieces to take down the dynasty.

A team like the Suns don't even have a stable core yet. They're too behind the curve to challenge anyone.

I'm talking more like a team like the Celtics. They pretty much have their core, and everything they really need.

The Rockets have their core, and they need pieces to match-up against them. But their window is short. Probably 3 years max.

Most teams don't even have a solid core yet. Portland needs to build a more stable core, because that midget back court isn't gonna beat anybody.

Pelicans were on the right track with Rondo, AD, Cousins, and Mirotic, but then they blew it up.

Spurs and Kawhi parted ways, Manu retired, and Parker got traded, so they're done.

Thunder got rid of Melo. They may be able to have something with Westbrook, PG, and Adams, but that remains to be seen.

And the rest aren't in the discussion.

The Warriors have had the same core since 2013. Most people don't remember in 2014 when the Warriors eviscerated the Heat at their house. That was a flash of what they were going to become.

They've had a head-start on everyone else.
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Old 09-11-2018, 05:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

You don't build a team to BEAT the current dynasty. You build a team to BE the dynasty
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Be the Kings and build neither
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

Very interesting topic. Kings and Blazers came so so so close, though. Same with the Rockets last year. I just think there's no easy answer. Realistically, as long as they have this "Hampton's 5" or "Hamptons 4" I think the only practical solution is to ride it out or hope for bad luck to befall Golden State. I dont see anyone beating them the next couple of years if theyre healthy. History says they can win several more before age, chemistry, injuries etc take hold. Thats why young teams like Boston, Utah and Philly are in a really good place right now. Young and on the up and coming. Boston is probably no longer up and coming now that Lebron has taken his talents to the West Coast, I think Boston is probably going back to the Finals next year. Once you get there anything can happen, but realistically, history says that we are probably in the middle phase of this Warriors dynasty, perhaps even on the descending end of this run. All of them seem to be happy and content which is even more frightening. Why end it? What would end it? Maybe one guy like Klay or Draymond wants to get paid? Id try to build a contender to beat the Warriors now. I think that series in Houston showed MAJOR ****** in their armor. If Chris Paulis on the court for game 6 or 7 who knows? Id try to go after them this year. Theyve had good luck keeping their key star reserves Iggy and Livingston healthy. That cant last forever. Id try t beat Golden State now, but then again Im also a Lakers fan and I know that Lebron wont play basketball forever. And also my Dad is almost 70 and Id like for him to be able to see the Lakers tie the Celtics in banners in his lifetime. 2008 still hurts.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:39 PM   #13
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

History of the NBA for the last 35 years has shown that inevitably one dynasty will eventually replace another. Aside from some off years, most of the time someone always has to go through the champs and usually the champs are either the Celtics, Lakers, Spurs, Bulls, Pistons, or Sixers. The ratio of dynasty to non-dynasty since 1980 is higher than other sports. Some would argue about what constitutes a dynasty. Can we agree if you repeat or go to three straight finals or multiple finals over a decade that you are at least in the conversation? Maybe repeat championships is a stretch but that's still an incredible accomplishment. Am I making "dynasty" to broad? KBLAZE, what would constitute a dynasty outside of the obvious '60s Celtics, Showtime Lakers, Bird Celtics, Pop Spurs, Jordan Bulls, Shaq, Kobe Bryant era? Obviously the Curry iteration of the Warriors counts now. Do any other examples count? I think each situation is unique. You have to make an effort. Someone has to go through the champs to be the champs.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

you wanna do both but focus on just building your own team as well as possible. bos for example is looking really good now and u dont want to build a team that matches up well with gs but terribly vs bos if you're say hou. There are exceptions ofc, I get what the kings and blazers did since the early 00's was the lakers and everyone else. They had to worry really only about beating the Warriors
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: If you are a GM do you build to beat the current dynasty or just the team you want?

NFL Football in the '90s had the Jimmy Johnson Cowboys and this century it's had the Tom Brady Patriots but nothing like basketball which is still the most aristocratic team sport in the world.
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