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Old 09-12-2018, 05:02 PM   #31
JohnnySic
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Penny wasn't even as good as Paul Pierce or Vince Carter. Kobe, LeBron, Wade? LOL.

People should stop viewing him through rose colored glasses. He was basically a Brandon Roy caliber player, and that's not bad at all.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:16 PM   #32
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix
Penny couldn't rebound like Hill, doesn't have a higher IQ than Lebron or his body or his passing, wasn't more fluid than Tmac or Kobe. Frankly if you want to go that route, Penny wasn't more 'gifted' than TMac in those areas. There are things these players did better than him as well, so nice try attempting to steer the conversation this way, but that's not how it works. Most of the players I listed earlier have definitive or at worst arguable cases for being higher impact, flat-out better and more productive players.

I'll just stick with the perimeter players since you want to go the 'apples/oranges' route with bigmen. Of course, doing so means you don't need to address the fact that he has absolutely no case over a Shaq or Duncan in terms of peak, but I'll play along. Wade was just a flat-out better player, whether he couldn't shoot as well or otherwise. So is Durant, so is Curry, so was Kobe. All of those players aren't just better, but significantly better. So is Harden and Westbrook. Hill had all of Penny's attributes, passing, scoring, with better rebounding and better across the board numbers as a result. Hill was AT WORST his equal, but I argued then and now that he was slightly better. The others are just better players on the floor, regardless of whatever particular skills you want to cherrypick that Penny may have been better at, or that he had all of these things in one package, ergo he's better......no. It's about the net results on the floor and how they translate over a career. Penny wasn't great enough for long enough, no team accolades, some all-star selections( a few undeserved), a couple of first team all-NBA. That's it. Even his best statline of 22/7/4 has been blown out the gym by numerous perimeter players the last 20 years. No-one has gotten in the HOF for 2 great years of basketball, and something abstract like 'uniqueness' isn't how this works, so your contention that this merits his inclusion is odd to say the least.
Penny was more than his statline or achievements. He had 'it'. He inspired a generation of players with his style of play. His knowledge of the game and natural feel for it was unmatched. basically a basketball version of brazilian Ronaldo/Ronaldinho.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeroAntic
Penny was more than his statline or achievements. He had 'it'. He inspired a generation of players with his style of play. His knowledge of the game and natural feel for it was unmatched. basically a basketball version of brazilian Ronaldo/Ronaldinho.
Holy **** dude.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeroAntic
Penny was more than his statline or achievements. He had 'it'. He inspired a generation of players with his style of play. His knowledge of the game and natural feel for it was unmatched. basically a basketball version of brazilian Ronaldo/Ronaldinho.

Well done, it took me a few posts to realIze you're actually trolling. Because your arguments are vaccuous and now bordering on hyperbole.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:01 PM   #35
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

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Originally Posted by Lakers Legend#32
Neither should be in.

this.

t-mac, g-hill, penny are not hof players.

hof caliber/generational talents? yes.. but the resumes are severely lacking.

even with his duke resume, grant has no business in the hall.

if those guys are in shawn kemp, chris webber, and tim hardaway should get in no problem.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:43 PM   #36
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Nah G Hill BY FAR has the better NBA resume. And when u add his college career, it makes it more lopsided. Gotta remember G Hill was a 7 time All Star AND 5 time All NBA. That right there is HOF TYPE shit in general, even though his best years were cut WAY SHORT!

Penny was the same caliber player in my opinion. His scoring and rebounding numbers took considerable hits because of Shaq. BUT his run as a top 5-10 player in the league was WAY SHORTER than G Hill. Hill was on that level DOUBLE the amount of time Penny was. Hill indeed was a precursor to LeBron in many ways. Bron just took it to the next level in a Karl Malone type of physique. And Penny's scoring skillset was as polished as MJ and Kobe. And he was a freak athlete. BUT after MJ, G Hill and Penny were the NEXT GUYS to combine:

Great scoring
Great passing for their positions
Freak athleticism
Great handles
Can play or defend PG, SG, and SF
Very good-great defense (of course MJ's D was epic. Hill became great in his later Detroit years. Penny was very good on D)
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

When it comes to Penny, why do people DISREGARD the impact Shaq on Penny's scoring and rebounding numbers! PLUS Nick and 3D were 20 PPG scorers in the past THEMSELVES! And Horace was 15-10 All Star and world champion PF. By the time Shaq left Orlando, Penny was ALREADY past his best days. The injury bug tore him up. So Penny NEVER had the chance to go off for 25+PPG like he was capable of doing.

Even when Kobe played with Shaq, he EASED into becoming a dominant scorer averaging numbers SIMILAR to Shaq. Even before that, Kobe was making All NBA teams. And EVERYBODY knew he was a dominant scorer, he was just deferring to Shaq. BUT Kobe eventually stop deferring and put up huge scoring PPG ALONG with Shaq. With Penny-Shaq, I think the evolution would have been similar. But with Penny's injuries and Shaq leaving, we never got to see that evolution.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:16 PM   #38
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Its hilarious to see these kids talking about Penny's stats and achievements having never seen him play in his day.

if they did, they would know the guy was something else. Not only he had no flaw in his game, but he had an element of genius that made him the most entertaining player in the league. Not the useless type of white chocolate showboating mind you, but actual creativity that balanced beauty and effiiency. after all the guys basketball IQ was through the roof.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:27 PM   #39
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

I saw Penny's whole career. He was an all-star caliber player. He was not an elite superstar. No need to elaborate. He just....wasn't.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:31 PM   #40
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeroAntic
Its hilarious to see these kids talking about Penny's stats and achievements having never seen him play in his day.

if they did, they would know the guy was something else. Not only he had no flaw in his game, but he had an element of genius that made him the most entertaining player in the league. Not the useless type of white chocolate showboating mind you, but actual creativity that balanced beauty and effiiency. after all the guys basketball IQ was through the roof.

It's more hilarious seeing you argue that Penny should be in the HOF because he was 'unique' and a 'genius'. Unquantifiable abstract bullshit.

I saw Penny at Memphis and from the moment he stepped foot in the NBA. I probably watched more of that Magic squad play than any team other than the Bulls during that period, because I followed Shaq from the outset of his career, so by extension I got to see tons of Penny games. *Several* players have come into the league better than him since.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

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Originally Posted by bizil
When it comes to Penny, why do people DISREGARD the impact Shaq on Penny's scoring and rebounding numbers! PLUS Nick and 3D were 20 PPG scorers in the past THEMSELVES! And Horace was 15-10 All Star and world champion PF. By the time Shaq left Orlando, Penny was ALREADY past his best days. The injury bug tore him up. So Penny NEVER had the chance to go off for 25+PPG like he was capable of doing.


Grant was a little bigger than Penny, 6'8 and 225 to Penny's 6'7 and 195. Grant was built a little bigger for rebounding and likely would have averaged more rebounds playing with Shaq than Penny would have anyway. The reality is that Penny is one of the game's great 'what ifs', who knows what kind of player he would have been at 28 if healthy. We'll never know. As far as I'm concerned they're on the exact same tier talent/skill wise, but Grant did his thing twice as long in terms of prime production. If Penny was able to remain healthy till like 2000, then he'd obviously have done enough to warrant a spot in the Hall. The same fate is going to befall Derrick Rose, who had a solid rookie campaign, became an all-star in his 2nd year, won the MVP in his third, then it all went downhill. He almost mirrors Penny's first 4-5 years beat for beat.

What is interesting to note is that Grant was putting up roughly the same assist numbers without nearly the same amount of scoring options, or a singularly dominant one like Penny had with Shaq.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:07 PM   #42
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Nope
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:20 PM   #43
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Lot of little kids who looked up to Penny in this thread. "He wuz my hewo "

Overrated, nostalgia player.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:41 PM   #44
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atljonesbro
Lot of little kids who looked up to Penny in this thread. "He wuz my hewo "

Overrated, nostalgia player.
not everything is measured in stats and achievements dumbass

Man, if Penny didn't get injured..
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:45 AM   #45
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Default Re: If Grant Hill maded it to the HOF, should Penny Hardaway also be inducted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix
Grant was a little bigger than Penny, 6'8 and 225 to Penny's 6'7 and 195. Grant was built a little bigger for rebounding and likely would have averaged more rebounds playing with Shaq than Penny would have anyway. The reality is that Penny is one of the game's great 'what ifs', who knows what kind of player he would have been at 28 if healthy. We'll never know. As far as I'm concerned they're on the exact same tier talent/skill wise, but Grant did his thing twice as long in terms of prime production. If Penny was able to remain healthy till like 2000, then he'd obviously have done enough to warrant a spot in the Hall. The same fate is going to befall Derrick Rose, who had a solid rookie campaign, became an all-star in his 2nd year, won the MVP in his third, then it all went downhill. He almost mirrors Penny's first 4-5 years beat for beat.

What is interesting to note is that Grant was putting up roughly the same assist numbers without nearly the same amount of scoring options, or a singularly dominant one like Penny had with Shaq.

Well said! The scary part about G Hill was he had this package at the SF:

- Freak athletic alpha dog scorer like Dr. J. Even the way he carried himself in general and his smoothness on the court was like Doc. Perfect type of supestar to carry the league like Doc

- All around ability of Pippen. Hill was like Pippen BUT an alpha dog level scorer. In Detroit, Hill took his scoring to the next level before the injuries.

- A triple double phenom. Even with all his injury issses, Hill had 29 triple doubles in his career. Just outside of the top 10 of all time. If he stayed healthy, he's likely in the top 5 all time in triple doubles.

Bron came down the pike in a Karl Malone type body and became the gold standard point forward in NBA history. And ELEVATED that breed of player into the Mt. Rushmore of NBA history. Evolution: Pip-Hill-Bron! Now the Greek Freak at 7'0 looks like he's the next link IF he stays at the SF long term.
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