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Old 06-17-2007, 05:36 PM   #31
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Blaze, Difference is the only comparison made where guys were guarded the same way and given the same amount of attention is Bron/Wade. Hell Melo in 05 played better vs the Spurs in this year's playoffs, and he definately was tripled most of the time and he certainly didn't have a better supporting cast. I think the team made 11 3pt shots in that series, and some of them were Melo's.

Lebron simply has a lot of holes in his offense due to the lack of a jumper, and his lack of effictiveness off the ball. You can't just dribble around for the shot clock and score well on a team like the Spurs. To say the only advantage Melo has is a jumpshot is not true.

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Old 06-17-2007, 05:37 PM   #32
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
So in 04 when Melo averaged 15 on .328 shooting in the series vs Minny Bibbys 17 on 39 vs them in round 2 makes Bibby inarguably better that year right?

And his second season? When he put up 19 on 42% shooting vs the Spurs. Im guessing that if Rip Hamilton matched that vs the Spurs that would make Rip the equal of second season Melo?

How about last year? When Melo averaged 21 on 33% shooting in the Clipper series first round loss? I suppose the fact that Raja Bell, Shawn Marion, and perhaps even Barbosa and Diaw ALL played as well or better vs the Clippers means Melo is no better than any of them right?

Every one of them shot better and while Diaw and Barbosa didnt score as much both were in the 14-15 range and playing their roles better than Melo did. Bell even made the biggest shot of the Suns season that series to send a game to double OT. Marion averaged 28/15 on 50+ shooting. Bell 18 on 47.

This is how it works right? Compared numbers vs the same teams in entirely different situations with no consideration given to teammates, coaching, the other team playing better or worse vs one of the two, or any factors at all aside from stats vs the same team.

If they make Melo better than Lebron this year...why wouldnt they make Marion better than Melo last year? **** by this method Melo would have been about the 5th best Sun on last years team right?

In 1994 Rod Strickland put up 24 and 10 on 50% shooting vs the Rockets to Ewings 19 and 12 on 37. Rod>Pat in 94? In 81 Larry Bird put up 15 on 42% shooting in the finals vs a team Norm Nixon put up 19/10 on 51% shooting against. Norm Nixon was better than Bird in Birds first title season? In 99 KG got 22/12 on 44% vs the Spurs and Spree got 26/7 on 43. They were equals in 99? Too big a position difference? In 89 Terry Porter averaged 22/8/6 on 50% shooting vs the Lakers and Isiah Thomas got 21/7/3 on 48. 4th year Terry Porter>Isiah in his prime in his first title run? In 96 Scottie Pippen averaged 16 on 34% shooting vs the Sonics and Mitch Richmond did 21 on 44. Hornacek did over 20 on well over 50% shooting vs the Sonics. Making Mitch clearly the better player in Pippens prime. Same for Hornacek. All nba first team, all D first team, better full season play and 72 wins out the window.

What determines how good you are....are numbers over 4-5 games...vs the same team. Thats it.

07 Melo >07 Bron. 06 Marion>06 Melo. Damn near everyone to play the spurs in 04 >04 Melo. Norm Nixon > Bird in 81. Mitch Richmond and Jeff Hornacek > Pippen in his prime.

It really is just that simple huh? What the hell was wrong with me thinking more factors into how good two players are than a week of games played vs the same team?

Basketball comparisons should be done with a calculator and a 4-5 game sample vs the same team with all other factors wiped out.

I feel so foolish using old methods like common sense, watching basketball, and considering skills, impact, and the unique situations players find themselves in. I tell you...I learn something new every time I come here.


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Old 06-17-2007, 05:37 PM   #33
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

It really is irrelevant. You can't use this as criteria for judging who is a better player unless you have a ridiculous amount of bias. Luckily, you do.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:40 PM   #34
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
It really is irrelevant. You can't use this as criteria for judging who is a better player unless you have a ridiculous amount of bias. Luckily, you do.

We all do
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Correct. Everybody has bias.

However, some people can regulate that bias and formulate a more objective opinion than others. You either cannot or will not.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

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Old 06-17-2007, 05:44 PM   #37
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.


Yes you're right man, the playoffs proved that Lebron took a team of scrubs to the Finals while Melo sat at home watching it, having a beer with his teammates which are superior to Brons. The playoffs also proved that Lebron had the type of game that Melo will probably never have.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

It's an interesting argument at least. I mean, LeBron has always been considered vastly superior to Melo, and sometimes I agree, but looking at how big of a failure he is offensively makes me wonder sometimes. I mean, I understand that the Spurs are the best defensive team in the league, and that they basically played LeBron perfect. But at the same time, the series revealed so many weaknesses in his game it's just disgusting. He is a player that offensively gets by purely on his court sense and his athleticism. He doesn't seem to understand the basics of good offense- ball movement, playing off the ball, making the defense shift and react and attacking the seams that are created.

In all his other series he was able to get by just because of his unnatural and deadly combination of size and quickness, as well as his ability to finish once he got to the rim or find the open player. He did this flawlessly for the majority of the playoffs, and it showed, as he took a team that really had no right being in the finals to play the Spurs. But when the Spurs shut down his one angle attack, he completely failed to make any adjustments. I mean, he did finally start playing in the post, which was smart, but even then it was just pure attack and dish. And he takes so long to do anything once he gets the ball that it allows the defense to be ready every time he makes a move. The Spurs destroyed him on that. The disturbing thing about that to me is that it's exactly how he played when he got into the league- he's shown very little growth offensively.

Melo is a whole different animal. He still struggles sometimes with the things he did when he was younger- holding the ball too long, waiting until the defense is set, and making bad decisions. But he has grown so much offensively since he's been in the league it's amazing. Game 1 of the Spurs series, their initial gameplan was to throw their normal Bowen + occasional hard double + tough double on penetration (the same D Bron got, except for the sagging) at him, and let the team D handle Iverson. But Bowen got torched, time after time, and Iverson got himself free for midrange jumpers with ease. The Spurs adjusted, putting Bowen on Iverson and throwing hard doubles Melo's way with much more frequency. This worked much better, as Iverson struglled somewhat the rest of the series, missing alot of shots he often makes. Melo, however, kept up his efficient level of scoring with ease. He attacked seams that were created with ball movement, made open jumpers, and created points on the offensive glass.we were in every game, in large part due to Melo's outstanding play.

Defensively, they both seem similar to me: not inclined to play much defense alot of the time, but when it's important they buckle down and become above average defenders. They excel at different areas: Lebron's a very good help defender when he wants to be, but I wouldn't trust him to man up a rock one on one. Melo's defensive rotations are pathetic, but when he feels like it he's the best perimeter man defender that we have.

The things that LeBron is so often praised for over Melo, mainly passing and rebounding, have become much hazier lines of late. While LeBron's passing game can be marvelous at times, it's also very one dimensional. He can pass when he's the one creating, and only really on the drive. He does this amazingly well, and gets alot of assists on it. Melo, however, has developed into a much better passer out of the post, and makes some very impressive passes. He dominates the ball much, much less than Bron, which results in the huge gap in assists. Melo has started flirting with triple doubles for the first time in his career due to his improved passing.

Rebounding, I think it's retarded to say they're not at least close. Everyone always points at the stats and say "omg Melo can't rebound" without actually stopping to look at the situation. On the defensive end, Melo is often expected to run out, looking for easy buckets while leaving Camby, Nene, and the PG to stay for the rebound. Obviously, if Melo, like Bron, was asked to be one of his teams main rebounders on the defensive end, and his competition were rebounders like Z and Gooden, his numbers would improve substantially. As it is, he gets many more offensive rebounds than Bron does. Even in the Spurs series, where he ran less than usual, he averaged 8.6.

Overal, Bron is still the guy that most people would pick to lead their ballclub, and rightfully so. He is a hell of a player, no question about it, and still has a higher ceiling than Melo. He led his team to the finals, and while I think Melo could have done it with Bron's team, there is certainly no guarantee. In the end, you have to go with Bron, just because he's so dynamic. But Melo isn't that far behind.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:46 PM   #39
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Correct. Everybody has bias.

However, some people can regulate that bias and formulate a more objective opinion than others. You either cannot or will not.

All I've said are facts. I haven't even said who's the better player or not. But I think its obvious that Melo is more versatile offensively, I think its obvious that Melo has a better jumpshot, thus the more unguardable player.

I've said plenty of times Lebron is more talented and gifted, maybe the most gifted ever, but he doesn't play play to his strengths to make his scoring easier or play to his teammates strengths, and he simply doesn't have a jumper. I don't think anything is cut and dry as to who's better, and don't really care, but facts are facts. And the fact that Im a fan of his game, and the fact that you're a ***** of him personally doesn't make you any more objective anyone.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:46 PM   #40
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Quote:
Melo in 05 played better vs the Spurs in this year's playoffs, and he definately was tripled most of the time

If there is one myth even more wrong than the myth about 6'5'' white centers in the 60s its the one about a bad playing star getting trippled. Nobody in the 25 years or so ive been watching the NBA....not shaq...not Jordan...Not Bird...not Hakeem....NOBODY got tripled most of the time in any series. Ever. Ive never even seen a game of Wilt getting tripled more often than not unless you count the 57 NCAA title game.

Nobody ever sees these triples except the fans of whoever is being discussed. Dirk fans see them. Kobe fans. Bron fans(last week there was a topic made claiming nobody ever got defended as well as Bron in game 7 vs the Pistons).

The **** just doesnt happen. Shaq in 2000 in the finals....didnt get a constant triple.

Melo like every single other player apologetic fans throw the triple claim out for got hard one on one with a standby help defender and a defender in the lane for a worst case situation.

If thats a triple team half the big scoring stars in the league see it every few games. And if thats a triple then Shaq back when hed have Ben on his back, Sheed fronting him, and Prince or Rip ready to help was getting quadruple teamed.

And he wasnt...

Its help defense. Help defense not being limited to one person coming over or being prepared doesnt make it a triple team. Godhimself couldnt score 5ppg vs a legit on the ball triple team and no team could ever win a game if they devoted 3 defenders to one man. Not even if that one mans teammates were Eric Snow, Chris Dudley, Ben Wallace, and Bruce Bowen.

It simply does not happen.

Legit all out on the ball double teams dont even happen that often unless a guy really gets going.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 06-17-2007 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:50 PM   #41
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Quote:
All I've said are facts.
Facts are used to skew and bias arguments all the time. The fact that Anthony played better against the Spurs in this year's playoffs doesn't make him a better player.

You can go ahead and argue using the entire picture, but saying he's better because of this year's playoffs is stupid. That's why this thread (and its starter) sucks.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:51 PM   #42
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

lebron had 1 great game against detroit. .game 5. the rest of his shlt was normal.

melo fought tough against the spurs and didnt back down at all. where was bron the entire series in the finals? nowhere to be seen.

melo played much better against the spurs then bron did.

if bron doesnt have that 1 spectacular game against detroit, melo > bron these playoffs.

think about it. dude played washington and newjersey and brokedown pistons team with no chemistry at all.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

if melo was in the east he'd be in the finals too.. and atleast they wouldnt get swept.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:56 PM   #44
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
So in 04 when Melo averaged 15 on .328 shooting in the series vs Minny Bibbys 17 on 39 vs them in round 2 makes Bibby inarguably better that year right?

And his second season? When he put up 19 on 42% shooting vs the Spurs. Im guessing that if Rip Hamilton matched that vs the Spurs that would make Rip the equal of second season Melo?

How about last year? When Melo averaged 21 on 33% shooting in the Clipper series first round loss? I suppose the fact that Raja Bell, Shawn Marion, and perhaps even Barbosa and Diaw ALL played as well or better vs the Clippers means Melo is no better than any of them right?

Every one of them shot better and while Diaw and Barbosa didnt score as much both were in the 14-15 range and playing their roles better than Melo did. Bell even made the biggest shot of the Suns season that series to send a game to double OT. Marion averaged 28/15 on 50+ shooting. Bell 18 on 47.

This is how it works right? Compared numbers vs the same teams in entirely different situations with no consideration given to teammates, coaching, the other team playing better or worse vs one of the two, or any factors at all aside from stats vs the same team.

If they make Melo better than Lebron this year...why wouldnt they make Marion better than Melo last year? **** by this method Melo would have been about the 5th best Sun on last years team right?

In 1994 Rod Strickland put up 24 and 10 on 50% shooting vs the Rockets to Ewings 19 and 12 on 37. Rod>Pat in 94? In 81 Larry Bird put up 15 on 42% shooting in the finals vs a team Norm Nixon put up 19/10 on 51% shooting against. Norm Nixon was better than Bird in Birds first title season? In 99 KG got 22/12 on 44% vs the Spurs and Spree got 26/7 on 43. They were equals in 99? Too big a position difference? In 89 Terry Porter averaged 22/8/6 on 50% shooting vs the Lakers and Isiah Thomas got 21/7/3 on 48. 4th year Terry Porter>Isiah in his prime in his first title run? In 96 Scottie Pippen averaged 16 on 34% shooting vs the Sonics and Mitch Richmond did 21 on 44. Hornacek did over 20 on well over 50% shooting vs the Sonics. Making Mitch clearly the better player in Pippens prime. Same for Hornacek. All nba first team, all D first team, better full season play and 72 wins out the window.

What determines how good you are....are numbers over 4-5 games...vs the same team. Thats it.

07 Melo >07 Bron. 06 Marion>06 Melo. Damn near everyone to play the spurs in 04 >04 Melo. Norm Nixon > Bird in 81. Mitch Richmond and Jeff Hornacek > Pippen in his prime.

It really is just that simple huh? What the hell was wrong with me thinking more factors into how good two players are than a week of games played vs the same team?

Basketball comparisons should be done with a calculator and a 4-5 game sample vs the same team with all other factors wiped out.

I feel so foolish using old methods like common sense, watching basketball, and considering skills, impact, and the unique situations players find themselves in. I tell you...I learn something new every time I come here.
You know, that was a whole lot of typing to try and make a flawed point. You can't say that a way of comparison is flawed, and then use examples that are nothing like the way it's being used. None of the players mentioned together serve especially similar roles against for their teams. LeBron and Melo do. None of the players mentioned together are that close in ability. LeBron and Melo are. If you're going to use that kind of argument, and waste that much time on it, at least try and make it make sense.

I'm not even disagreeing with you- you can't site these 2 series and say "obviously Melo > Bron" without looking at everything else involved. It's moronic and short sighted. But at the same time, you shouldn't just throw it out because the situations are slightly different. Despite that I still would take Bron over Melo, it's worth looking at their effectiveness against the same defense. And despite that Melo's supporting cast is better than Bron's, they didn't exactly show it- shooting threes horribly and shooting overall bad percentages. So to just throw it out the window entirely is just as bad as using it as the sole means of comparison.
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:57 PM   #45
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Default Re: Melo>Bron. The playoffs proved it.

Maybe not most of the time, but much of the time he did in 05. Most of the time he did vs the Clipps. Help defense whatever sugar coat it all you want, there were 3 people on or around him. 2 on him hard, 1 protecting the paint. Its because the Nugz those 2 years may have been the worst 3pt shooting teams in the league. Zero help, no one who could make a wide open jumpshot, and every year in the postseason the Nugz have faced a great interior defensive unit.

The Clipps came about as close to devoting 3 to 1 player as ever done before. Because they knew no one would burn them. They didn't even have Nene or Kenyon in the paint last year.
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