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Old 06-20-2007, 01:08 PM   #31
wTFaMonkey
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by Kebab Stall
There are. If you are under the age of 18 and in full time education then you don't pay at all, the services are free. But once you are fully working, services such as opticians, dentists and orthodentists you have to pay for each visit.

but is there insurance? any government help? or you do pay all of it
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:13 PM   #32
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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good doctors who actually care about their patients and are not afraid of going up against insurance companies or management still perform "differential diagnosis" right now to get to the root of the problem.

The VAST majority of the doctors/med students that I have met in my life are going into medicine for the prestige and the money, not because they "care about patients" or "want to make a difference." Now, I'm not saying that those kinds of doctors don't exist, and I'm sure that my experience is the exception rather than the rule, but from what I've seen a good doctor is like an honest man. Increasingly hard to find.

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although some doctors are bad, it's more the fact that hospitals and health care providers want to cut costs as much as possible so they are telling doctors to half ass it.

Not from my experience. Hospitals and health care providers cutting costs haven't stopped any of the doctors in my town from living in palatial mansions in the hills and having 500k worth of automobiles in the garage, while the people they treat are paying more for health care/insurance than they can afford, if they have any at all.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by CakeorDeath
The VAST majority of the doctors/med students that I have met in my life are going into medicine for the prestige and the money, not because they "care about patients" or "want to make a difference." Now, I'm not saying that those kinds of doctors don't exist, and I'm sure that my experience is the exception rather than the rule, but from what I've seen a good doctor is like an honest man. Increasingly hard to find.



Not from my experience. Hospitals and health care providers cutting costs haven't stopped any of the doctors in my town from living in palatial mansions in the hills and having 500k worth of automobiles in the garage, while the people they treat are paying more for health care/insurance than they can afford, if they have any at all.


i checked AAMC. doctors make a median income of $160,000 a year. hefty, but not millionaire status by any accounts. of course, the specialists and the more powerful doctors who lead research and all of that could make millions a year, but that's not all doctors. I don't know why you are taking a few cases and stretching it out to all doctors. that's bigotry.

and have you ever been to a typical ER before? health care cut costs there first. unless you are brought in by the ambulance, you have to wait a very long time before anyone tells you anything and you could be stuck there for even longer.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by wTFaMonkey
yeah, we pay taxes also. i dont see any free health care

also, in the UK, if it is somewhat free. then what did you have to put out on your part? is there a premium?

Yeah, we pay taxes, but we pay no where near 50% of our pay, which is close to what many citizens of European countries have to pay to receive their "free" health care. Also, I get to choose my doctor from a plethora of choices based on his/her credentials and reputation. In Europe, the option to choose your physician is much more limited. If you hate it so much over here, then immigrate the f*c# out!
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:20 PM   #35
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by wTFaMonkey
but is there insurance? any government help? or you do pay all of it
The only health insurance I know of is in private health care. But everyone pays taxes and that pays for hospitals and health care and other things of the like such as police and schools etc. Some of the taxes go into the National Health Service (NHS) and if you have to use a service such as the Opticians then the NHS will pay for some of the costs and you pay the rest. But if you have surgery then you don't pay anything, the NHS (which is your money anyway from taxes) will pay that for you.

Hope you can understand that, I tried to explain it best I could.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by Skyscraper
i checked AAMC. doctors make a median income of $160,000 a year. hefty, but not millionaire status by any accounts. of course, the specialists and the more powerful doctors who lead research and all of that could make millions a year, but that's not all doctors. I don't know why you are taking a few cases and stretching it out to all doctors. that's bigotry.

and have you ever been to a typical ER before? health care cut costs there first. unless you are brought in by the ambulance, you have to wait a very long time before anyone tells you anything and you could be stuck there for even longer.

also, starting out attending physicians over at UK get paid 200,000 dollars a year, more than the US.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:29 PM   #37
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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i checked AAMC. doctors make a median income of $160,000 a year. hefty, but not millionaire status by any accounts. of course, the specialists and the more powerful doctors who lead research and all of that could make millions a year, but that's not all doctors

Plenty of people go to school far longer than medical doctors and receive just as much if not more specialized training in their fields and are lucky to make 60k a year. Why should a non-specialist, non-lead researcher, run-of-the-mill average doctor make a median income of 160k? Too much.

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I don't know why you are taking a few cases and stretching it out to all doctors. that's bigotry.

I'm not taking a few cases, I'm taking literally hundreds of accounts. That's not bigotry, that's being fed up with a class of overpaid, over-respected people that take advantage of poor folks.

Just out of curiosity, you're not a med student or a doctor are you? Because my opinions seem to strike a nerve with you.

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and have you ever been to a typical ER before? health care cut costs there first. unless you are brought in by the ambulance, you have to wait a very long time before anyone tells you anything and you could be stuck there for even longer

I'm quite familiar with how billing works. And again, I'm not saying that all hospitals/doctors are bad. But there is a lot of crazy ish that goes down that widens the gap between rich and poor in this country, and the health care system is a big part of that.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:35 PM   #38
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

in continental europe all employers pay so-called "contributions" for health insurance. "contributions" for health insurance and other forms of social care, along with income tax are difference between your gross income and your net income (what you actually receive in cash)

so it's in no way free. although it can SEEM so if you don't know what's behind. it's obligatory, and you can't see actual money going away from your pocket.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:35 PM   #39
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by CakeorDeath
Plenty of people go to school far longer than medical doctors and receive just as much if not more specialized training in their fields and are lucky to make 60k a year. Why should a non-specialist, non-lead researcher, run-of-the-mill average doctor make a median income of 160k? Too much.



I'm not taking a few cases, I'm taking literally hundreds of accounts. That's not bigotry, that's being fed up with a class of overpaid, over-respected people that take advantage of poor folks.

Just out of curiosity, you're not a med student or a doctor are you? Because my opinions seem to strike a nerve with you.



I'm quite familiar with how billing works. And again, I'm not saying that all hospitals/doctors are bad. But there is a lot of crazy ish that goes down that widens the gap between rich and poor in this country, and the health care system is a big part of that.



hmm... while I don't doubt you have a good point about doctors living in palatial palaces and making a lot of money at the expense of the poor...

to say hundreds of them... needs documentation and proof... not word of mouth...

but I get your overall message.




in OTC, Skyscraper said he sells knives for a living... so no he is not a med student
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:36 PM   #40
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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A 2 Tier system would work better. Everyone still gets free health care but there is an option to pay in private clinics for faster service.

I'm not entirely sold on the idea. I understand that it ideally could work better, but I'm worried that the public system would suffer if we split into two tiers, which matters to me because I'd never want to pay for healthcare.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:40 PM   #41
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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to say hundreds of them... needs documentation and proof... not word of mouth...

Plenty of books on the subject.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:42 PM   #42
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by CakeorDeath
Plenty of people go to school far longer than medical doctors and receive just as much if not more specialized training in their fields and are lucky to make 60k a year. Why should a non-specialist, non-lead researcher, run-of-the-mill average doctor make a median income of 160k? Too much.



I'm not taking a few cases, I'm taking literally hundreds of accounts. That's not bigotry, that's being fed up with a class of overpaid, over-respected people that take advantage of poor folks.

Just out of curiosity, you're not a med student or a doctor are you? Because my opinions seem to strike a nerve with you.



I'm quite familiar with how billing works. And again, I'm not saying that all hospitals/doctors are bad. But there is a lot of crazy ish that goes down that widens the gap between rich and poor in this country, and the health care system is a big part of that.


medical school right now is around $250,000, it would also take 10+ years to become a attending physician. while you are a resident, you get around $34,000 a year.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:43 PM   #43
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

Um, Moore never said the health care was free for everybody. He mentions the fact that people have to pay TAXES to get it.

Some people don't even watch the movie before they start talking ****. Brilliant.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:49 PM   #44
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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medical school right now is around $250,000

What's your point? Plenty of undergrad institutions, when you figure in living expenses, books, tuition, etc. cost around 50k a year. So should we give every student who graduates with a bachelor's degree from those institutions a six figure income job right out of the shoot because they'll no doubt have high student loan debt to the tune of around 200k (assuming mommy and daddy didn't just pay for it for them)?

But you do bring up one good point. Med school is too expensive, too.

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while you are a resident, you get around $34,000 a year.

I have plenty of friends and a sibling that have gone through med school; none made less than 40k their first year as a resident. Again, maybe my experience is simply exceptional, not normal.

As a teacher with eight years of college/grad school, I'd love to make 40k by working one job. I've got to work two to get into that range.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:52 PM   #45
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Default Re: OT: michael moore's new movie: SICKO

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Originally Posted by CakeorDeath
What's your point? Plenty of undergrad institutions, when you figure in living expenses, books, tuition, etc. cost around 50k a year. So should we give every student who graduates with a bachelor's degree from those institutions a six figure income job right out of the shoot because they'll no doubt have high student loan debt to the tune of around 200k (assuming mommy and daddy didn't just pay for it for them)?

But you do bring up one good point. Med school is too expensive, too.



I have plenty of friends and a sibling that have gone through med school; none made less than 40k their first year as a resident. Again, maybe my experience is simply exceptional, not normal.

As a teacher with eight years of college/grad school, I'd love to make 40k by working one job. I've got to work two to get into that range.



i've read that median resident income is now $50,000.

possibly just adjusting for inflation from 15 years ago
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