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Old 07-03-2007, 05:58 AM   #31
Juvenile
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

apriorist:

You claim that without god, there would be no objective morals and therefore Dawkins thesis of "men will do the "right" thing" isnt valid.
I go a lot farther than you. There are no objective morals at all. There are no universal laws, that I can deduct my morals from. In fact, besides the laws of physics and logic, all other morals or laws are expressions of societal will. But they arent objective. They are manmade laws and as those, inherently subjective.
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:49 AM   #32
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvenile
apriorist:

You claim that without god, there would be no objective morals and therefore Dawkins thesis of "men will do the "right" thing" isnt valid.
I go a lot farther than you. There are no objective morals at all. There are no universal laws, that I can deduct my morals from. In fact, besides the laws of physics and logic, all other morals or laws are expressions of societal will. But they arent objective. They are manmade laws and as those, inherently subjective.
got'm
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:28 AM   #33
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvenile
apriorist:

You claim that without god, there would be no objective morals and therefore Dawkins thesis of "men will do the "right" thing" isnt valid.
I go a lot farther than you. There are no objective morals at all. There are no universal laws, that I can deduct my morals from. In fact, besides the laws of physics and logic, all other morals or laws are expressions of societal will. But they arent objective. They are manmade laws and as those, inherently subjective.

Yeah, I agree. What you said is exactly what I meant. However, if there is a God, and an afterlife, and God judges us based on our actions, then there *are* objective morals. Agree?
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:01 AM   #34
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Default Misconceptions about the sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
Im sorry, but I was a catholic and they DO worship Mary and the idols, and some priest(not all) are molestors and alot of the things that are wrong in christianity have to do with the catholic church... I am not saying this as disrespect to devout catholics because I have the upmost respect for anyone who follows their religion and takes it very seriously...Any person who can give themselves the way seriously relgious people do is to be respected for that alone...

Catholic church is based on alot of things that stray from the bible and from God and for me, even as a child it was disturbing. I always had doubts about the the nature of confession as well as many of the sacraments.

I will go into more depth if anyone asks...

the evolution of the sacraments have occured for centuries. enough to say that there are biblical roots to the sacraments and their development.

i am not sure what you meant by "stray from the bible and from God" and why it was so disturbing



the nature of the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) is being made right with God after taking responsibility for our sins. of course God forgives us when we ask, but the question is "what helps us realize the power of this forgiveness and its meaning in our lives?"

a mature christian takes the ongoing mercy, love and grace of God seriously as a source of our change to be more like Christ in our lives

interesting development in this sacrament is that confession/penance used to be a communal activity. a public sinner was literally prevented from receiving communion (excommunicated) because of grave sins and their effects on the community. after a period of contrition to show a true change of heart (repentance), usually during lent, the person was shown forgiveness by the community and welcomed back into the fold.

although i am glad we dont practice this today, it did show the communal nature of the sacraments and the primary role of the community in its administration and interpretation

today, in our individualistic culture of the usa, we dont get this commmunal sense: our relationship with God reflects this-- me and God, God and me

this affects our affiliation to the community of faith. i think it is more pronounced with our non-catholic brothers and sisters
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:56 AM   #35
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvenile
apriorist:

You claim that without god, there would be no objective morals and therefore Dawkins thesis of "men will do the "right" thing" isnt valid.
I go a lot farther than you. There are no objective morals at all. There are no universal laws, that I can deduct my morals from. In fact, besides the laws of physics and logic, all other morals or laws are expressions of societal will. But they arent objective. They are manmade laws and as those, inherently subjective.


That is just a ridiculous statement. I have no faith in a higher being, and yet I don't steal, cheat on my girlfriend, get in fights, etc. How is that I wonder? I'm just a godless heathen after all, woe is me
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

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Originally Posted by Randy
That is just a ridiculous statement. I have no faith in a higher being, and yet I don't steal, cheat on my girlfriend, get in fights, etc. How is that I wonder? I'm just a godless heathen after all, woe is me

It has to do with logic, not being a "godless heathen". You have no objective standard to measure "right" and "wrong". "Right" and "wrong" are just your subjective opinions.
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:30 AM   #37
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

It's called compassion and empathy for yourself and fellow man. If something I do hurts myself or someone else in some way, it's usually considered "wrong".

EDIT: Obviously you can't have empathy for yourself, but you can love and respect yourself. I don't need god to know what is right and what is wrong. How could I trust an all powerful and all loving being that still allows children to starve to death and 12 year old girls who to be raped?

Last edited by Randy : 07-03-2007 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:23 PM   #38
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
It's called compassion and empathy for yourself and fellow man. If something I do hurts myself or someone else in some way, it's usually considered "wrong".

EDIT: Obviously you can't have empathy for yourself, but you can love and respect yourself. I don't need god to know what is right and what is wrong. How could I trust an all powerful and all loving being that still allows children to starve to death and 12 year old girls who to be raped?

"it's usually considered" -> exactly... subjective
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:08 PM   #39
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

many people who do not profess any faith/religion know the difference between right and wrong.

many people who do profess a faith and call themselves reigious can be ignorant about right and wrong.

but it suggests the question: what is right/wrong and good/bad?

to address ethics and morality, there needs to be, at least, some common principles by which to agree

for people of faith, these come from the interpreted texts and teachings of that faith

for others, it may come from other values or principles not necessarily religiously based

the golden rule is one example: treat others as you would have them treat you


for the christian, there is a "jesus" factor with this principle: love one another as christ loves us. it assumes a response to a relationship with jesus christ and knowing what christ's love is about and then to emulate it in the world


but there is a good point regarding objective aspects of morality. there needs to be some objective principles else everything can be seen as morally equal. possible examples:
  • it is fine that hitler murdered 6 mil jews
  • human sacrifice by the aztecs is fine
  • it is acceptable to poison the air and water of the world for profit
subjective morality will lead to destruction by those who hold power for their own selfish purposes


interesting point: catholic moral teachings, although informed by biblical principles and expanded from scripture and revelation, come principally from a natural law ethic.
if something is good and right, then it is good and right not because of special revealed truth but in and of itself, it is good and right

Last edited by RainierBeachPoet : 07-03-2007 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:32 PM   #40
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Default Re: interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
they might be devalued by many; but for many, it is what gives direction to our lives.

the bible is still a best seller; people believe the words in the koran

so the question becomes: is this a good interpretation or false/narrrow interpretation?

Just because a billion people follow something or read something doesnt make it right. It just means that the said thing is marketed in the right way. Which is clearly the case with the major world relegions. My point is that there is really no need to follow these books in particular. And as far as saying god is needed for morality to exist I would disagree and counter with that morality is needed for the betterment of society. The reason we are egalitarian is because we are inherently selfish and as such some form of cooperative sociological laws will emerge in society whether there is a god or not to allow people to function together.
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:36 PM   #41
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Default Re: interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by gb8
Just because a billion people follow something or read something doesnt make it right. It just means that the said thing is marketed in the right way. Which is clearly the case with the major world relegions. My point is that there is really no need to follow these books in particular. And as far as saying god is needed for morality to exist I would disagree and counter with that morality is needed for the betterment of society. The reason we are egalitarian is because we are inherently selfish and as such some form of cooperative sociological laws will emerge in society whether there is a god or not to allow people to function together.

That's a utilitarian argument.
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:55 PM   #42
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Default Re: interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by apriorist
That's a utilitarian argument.

Its true, Greater Good for the Greater numbers is a universal idea that appeals across the board.
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:32 PM   #43
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Default Re: interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by gb8
Its true, Greater Good for the Greater numbers is a universal idea that appeals across the board.

By "universal idea" do you mean "an idea that's widely accepted"? There's a big difference between an idea that's widely accepted and an objective truth.

Last edited by apriorist : 07-03-2007 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:02 PM   #44
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Default Re: interpretation

Quote:
Originally Posted by apriorist
By "universal idea" do you mean "an idea that's widely accepted"? There's a big difference between an idea that's widely accepted and an objective truth.

Well what benefits more people is the objective truth, their is no greater objective truth then to maximising goodness.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:13 PM   #45
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet

today, in our individualistic culture of the usa, we dont get this commmunal sense: our relationship with God reflects this-- me and God, God and me

this affects our affiliation to the community of faith. i think it is more pronounced with our non-catholic brothers and sisters

True, you see this a lot in the US, where the need to be individually strong is emphsized at the expense of being collectively strong. I'm a firm believer that balance is key: one should strive to be individually strong in God, and then strive to help his fellow man in becoming strong.

Back in the first century A.D. Christians looked more like the Detroit Pistons- no outright superstars or anyone looking to be the man, but everyone strong and able in his own rightcontributing his part while at the same time giving others room to do their part. Nowadays, everyone's telling each other to become a spiritual Kobe, to harness all your talents and skill and money and possessions and spiritual swagger so that people will stand in awe, and people are supposed to see God in that. But if that's the way to do it, how come so many non-Christians are not receiving that?

It's just another example of how far we Christians have gotten away from the way we were supposed to represent the things we believe, and it results in others questioning the validity of God, Jesus, the Bible and Christianity itself.
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