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Old 07-07-2007, 11:00 AM   #61
Walton_04
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

This thread proves one thing: Religion and politics go hand-in-hand. The "religious" cannot convince the atheist through mere arguments. Neither can the atheist (or agnostics) can convince the religious that there's no God. Only God can prove himself to an atheist.

I was atheist when I was a teenager. But then strange things happened. I began to pray, and coincidentally, things were falling into place. I find it hard to believe that all these good things have been happening in my life by pure luck.

At the same time, I haven't met a cheater, liar, drug dealer, sexually immoral who can look at me straight in the eye and tell me that their life is complete, joyful, and that they sleep well at night.

So all this "morals are subjective" crap, it cannot be proven. Go to a community, society, country... where people don't steal, don't cheat, don't murder. I can guarantee you that they have peace, joy, and none if its citizens want to leave that neighborhood.

This is not enough for me to convince you that there's a God, or that there are universal objective morals. But try it for yourself. Pretend that there is a
God, and pretend to pray to it. If you cheat on your partner, try faithfulness and see what happens. Even atheists know that "what goes around comes around"
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Old 07-07-2007, 12:11 PM   #62
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton_04
This thread proves one thing: Religion and politics go hand-in-hand. The "religious" cannot convince the atheist through mere arguments. Neither can the atheist (or agnostics) can convince the religious that there's no God. Only God can prove himself to an atheist.

I was atheist when I was a teenager. But then strange things happened. I began to pray, and coincidentally, things were falling into place. I find it hard to believe that all these good things have been happening in my life by pure luck.

At the same time, I haven't met a cheater, liar, drug dealer, sexually immoral who can look at me straight in the eye and tell me that their life is complete, joyful, and that they sleep well at night.

So all this "morals are subjective" crap, it cannot be proven. Go to a community, society, country... where people don't steal, don't cheat, don't murder. I can guarantee you that they have peace, joy, and none if its citizens want to leave that neighborhood.

This is not enough for me to convince you that there's a God, or that there are universal objective morals. But try it for yourself. Pretend that there is a
God, and pretend to pray to it. If you cheat on your partner, try faithfulness and see what happens. Even atheists know that "what goes around comes around"

What goes around comes around is a over simplification of the karmic principles which if looked at in greater detail make much more sense then the concepts of the afterlife prevalent in the biblical relegions. Doesnt mean they are true either and doesnt mean they are not just like pretty much everything in your post its pure conjecture. To pretend there is a god and and praying to it defeat the basic premise of praying to a god which the believer finds to be real. If one can pray to a pretend god and get results doesnt that kinda show that all gods/relegion are infact pretend and praying is more like a placebo effect on our lives?
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Old 07-07-2007, 06:43 PM   #63
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by gb8
What goes around comes around is a over simplification of the karmic principles which if looked at in greater detail make much more sense then the concepts of the afterlife prevalent in the biblical relegions. Doesnt mean they are true either and doesnt mean they are not just like pretty much everything in your post its pure conjecture.

What did I just say?
Didn't I say that I can't prove anything concerning God, religion, or morals by mere argument? You just quoted me! Your quote below:

" Doesnt mean they are true either and doesnt mean they are not just like pretty much everything in your post its pure conjecture. "

Just repeated the same thing I said in different words.


People these days either believe in faith (like me), and others will have to see
Jesus Christ come down from heaven followed by thunder and lightning.

Many non-religious people believe in Karma, What goes around... etc.
As you said, they don't prove anything, but if people believe it, what difference does it make? Look, if you see a miracle right before your eyes, every kind of argument, conjecture, and philosophical hoopla will be meaningless to you.

All I'm trying to prove is 2 things: People will believe what they want, and certain moral beliefs or practices will produce certain results.

If one can pray to a pretend god and get results doesnt that kinda show that all gods/relegion are infact pretend and praying is more like a placebo effect on our lives?

Who cares what it proves? If a belief in God and prayer works for me, I don't care if it's fake, placebo, what have you... If you pray for your father to be healed from cancer, and he heals completely, will you believe that prayer is false? Will you believe that the healing was coincidence? What if you have not, one, but 3 miracles happen to you? All coincidence? Conjecture?
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Old 07-07-2007, 06:46 PM   #64
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Anyway, this thread has gotten off topic.

If any of you want to start a separate thread discussing religion, morals, God... go for it!

We'll all be wasting each other's time in the end
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Old 07-07-2007, 06:57 PM   #65
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton_04
What did I just say?
Didn't I say that I can't prove anything concerning God, religion, or morals by mere argument? You just quoted me! Your quote below:

" Doesnt mean they are true either and doesnt mean they are not just like pretty much everything in your post its pure conjecture. "

Just repeated the same thing I said in different words.


People these days either believe in faith (like me), and others will have to see
Jesus Christ come down from heaven followed by thunder and lightning.

Many non-religious people believe in Karma, What goes around... etc.
As you said, they don't prove anything, but if people believe it, what difference does it make? Look, if you see a miracle right before your eyes, every kind of argument, conjecture, and philosophical hoopla will be meaningless to you.

All I'm trying to prove is 2 things: People will believe what they want, and certain moral beliefs or practices will produce certain results.

If one can pray to a pretend god and get results doesnt that kinda show that all gods/relegion are infact pretend and praying is more like a placebo effect on our lives?

Who cares what it proves? If a belief in God and prayer works for me, I don't care if it's fake, placebo, what have you... If you pray for your father to be healed from cancer, and he heals completely, will you believe that prayer is false? Will you believe that the healing was coincidence? What if you have not, one, but 3 miracles happen to you? All coincidence? Conjecture?

You should care if it proves something or not, ignorance is not bliss its a falacy and the human pursit for enlightenment relies on getting rid of ignorance and gaining better understanding. The acts such as being cured of cancer are not miracles. When people talk about miracles today they talk of personal ones usually biological i.e sickness and what not. Miraces which defy the laws of physics for instance the ones described in the bible would show the presence of god, i.e something existing with a arkamedis pole for our reality and able to manipulate it which I am sorry to say just hasnt happened. The point being one should care about it since relegion clearly affects the world we live in, weather it be muslim extremists, zionists, or the fundamentalist christians in the mid west estate it clearly has an affect on our world. Its not just some abstract personal thing as you describe it to be.
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:47 PM   #66
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by gb8
You should care if it proves something or not, ignorance is not bliss its a falacy and the human pursit for enlightenment relies on getting rid of ignorance and gaining better understanding.
The point being one should care about it since relegion clearly affects the world we live in, weather it be muslim extremists, zionists, or the fundamentalist christians in the mid west estate it clearly has an affect on our world. Its not just some abstract personal thing as you describe it to be.

So how in the world did we move on to muslim extremism and christian fundamentalism? I never mentioned that.

Let me level with you:
I am a Christian, I do believe in the God of the Bible and in Jesus Christ.
I take it you're atheist and probably think it foolish that anyone should believe in God. That's where I don't care if I can prove God to you!

The most fundamental Christian I've ever known is Mother Teresa. Do you have a problem with all the good she did in this world. It was her belief in God and faith in Jesus Christ that led her to do all her benevolent deeds. And she didn't care if the person was christian, muslim, atheist... If she had found you
laying on the street, she would've taken care of you.

Another thing, If you saw an angel or a spiritual being with your own eyes, would that prove anything to you? I haven't seen angels, but I have seen spiritual beings (demons) and some of my friends saw them with me. Of course, you won't believe it because it's just my word.

Wait... your explanation will probably be that I'm schizophrenic or that I have a mental disease. I don't care about your opinion. You haven't walked in my shoes or the shoes of those of us who believe in God.

You're bent on proving to me that there is no God. I'm just telling you what I believe and what I've experienced in my life; my goal is not to make you a Christian.

Lastly, can you tell me that you haven't met a single religious person who hasn't done good things to you?
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:50 PM   #67
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton_04
So how in the world did we move on to muslim extremism and christian fundamentalism? I never mentioned that.

Let me level with you:
I am a Christian, I do believe in the God of the Bible and in Jesus Christ.
I take it you're atheist and probably think it foolish that anyone should believe in God. That's where I don't care if I can prove God to you!

The most fundamental Christian I've ever known is Mother Teresa. Do you have a problem with all the good she did in this world. It was her belief in God and faith in Jesus Christ that led her to do all her benevolent deeds. And she didn't care if the person was christian, muslim, atheist... If she had found you
laying on the street, she would've taken care of you.

Another thing, If you saw an angel or a spiritual being with your own eyes, would that prove anything to you? I haven't seen angels, but I have seen spiritual beings (demons) and some of my friends saw them with me. Of course, you won't believe it because it's just my word.

Wait... your explanation will probably be that I'm schizophrenic or that I have a mental disease. I don't care about your opinion. You haven't walked in my shoes or the shoes of those of us who believe in God.

You're bent on proving to me that there is no God. I'm just telling you what I believe and what I've experienced in my life; my goal is not to make you a Christian.

Lastly, can you tell me that you haven't met a single religious person who hasn't done good things to you?

So maybe the God you're believing in is evil. What did you see when you saw a "demon." Honestly, I think i have seen one too a long with a ghost but i wont explain it.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:20 PM   #68
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton_04
So how in the world did we move on to muslim extremism and christian fundamentalism? I never mentioned that.

Let me level with you:
I am a Christian, I do believe in the God of the Bible and in Jesus Christ.
I take it you're atheist and probably think it foolish that anyone should believe in God. That's where I don't care if I can prove God to you!

The most fundamental Christian I've ever known is Mother Teresa. Do you have a problem with all the good she did in this world. It was her belief in God and faith in Jesus Christ that led her to do all her benevolent deeds. And she didn't care if the person was christian, muslim, atheist... If she had found you
laying on the street, she would've taken care of you.

Another thing, If you saw an angel or a spiritual being with your own eyes, would that prove anything to you? I haven't seen angels, but I have seen spiritual beings (demons) and some of my friends saw them with me. Of course, you won't believe it because it's just my word.

Wait... your explanation will probably be that I'm schizophrenic or that I have a mental disease. I don't care about your opinion. You haven't walked in my shoes or the shoes of those of us who believe in God.

You're bent on proving to me that there is no God. I'm just telling you what I believe and what I've experienced in my life; my goal is not to make you a Christian.

Lastly, can you tell me that you haven't met a single religious person who hasn't done good things to you?

Lol wow dude not trying top prove anything to you but was merely pointing out the fact that relegion isnt just a personal matter but one which affects the greater world, and unfortunately more negatively then positively. I find it pretty offensive that you class me as an athiest withouit haing any knowledge of any of my beliefs or ack thereoff. I would say I am more of an agnostic one who finds the question of existence a pertinent one and as such should be given the intellectual thought that it deserves. So mother teresa is fundamentally more christian then say the people that untertook the crusades? In the context of fundamentalism I use it in the context of extremism that seems to be the popular definition.

As far your point of seeing spiritual beings, I dont know what you did see or didnt see. Those magic mushrooms are a treat arent they. lol, all joking aside that proves nothing either way another man could have seen the same thing and interpreted it as an alien does that make the thing you saw an alien. David Ike swears he has seen people shape shift and most of the people in position of power are shape shifting lizards an ancient race of people which still inhabit the underground caves of LA i believe. Does that make his claims real? There is nothing wrong with having beliefs or faith but when said faith affects the world so greatly it deserves to be examined more closely and scrutinized or do you contend that one should shut their eyes to any critical thinking and dialogue?

P.S I have met many relegious people, muslim, hindu, sikh, buddhist, christians and jewish who have all seemed liek nice enough people, I have also met many non relegious people who I have had pleasent experience with. Furthermore I have et many a prick who is also relegious and vice versa, People are jsut people relegion in the context of masses appears to be dangerous.

Last edited by gb8 : 07-07-2007 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 07-08-2007, 09:38 AM   #69
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Default Re: Misconceptions about the Catholic Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walton_04
This thread proves one thing: Religion and politics go hand-in-hand. The "religious" cannot convince the atheist through mere arguments. Neither can the atheist (or agnostics) can convince the religious that there's no God. Only God can prove himself to an atheist.

I was atheist when I was a teenager. But then strange things happened. I began to pray, and coincidentally, things were falling into place. I find it hard to believe that all these good things have been happening in my life by pure luck.

At the same time, I haven't met a cheater, liar, drug dealer, sexually immoral who can look at me straight in the eye and tell me that their life is complete, joyful, and that they sleep well at night.

So all this "morals are subjective" crap, it cannot be proven. Go to a community, society, country... where people don't steal, don't cheat, don't murder. I can guarantee you that they have peace, joy, and none if its citizens want to leave that neighborhood.

This is not enough for me to convince you that there's a God, or that there are universal objective morals. But try it for yourself. Pretend that there is a
God, and pretend to pray to it. If you cheat on your partner, try faithfulness and see what happens. Even atheists know that "what goes around comes around"

as a principle, i would state it in this way:

all of our actions have consequences and affect others
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