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Old 07-02-2007, 09:47 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

The Knicks will be better than the celtics, and it's a toss up between the nets and the Knicks for second behind the Raptors.
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:48 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

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Yes; they should be better than everyone besides Detroit, barring a large signing.
Nope. I'm a huge Celtics fan, but this isn't happening.

Quote:
If you read my post, I explained how Pierce missed over 35 games, and a stretch where he missed 24 straight (where the Celtics went 2-22). Half the season they were being led in scoring by Ryan Gomes, who's now the 6th best player on the team.
And the year before that, at full capacity, they didn't make the playoffs. They've added some, but not enough to catapult them to 50+ game winners. No way. Take off the gleen glasses.

Quote:
He won't shoot the ball, but he makes great decisions, has incredible speed (40 time may be top 3 in the league)
Unfortunately, with the players the Celtics have, his speed means...not that much. They'll run a half court set which Rondo is ill-equipped for because you need a guy who can shoot the rock.

Quote:
No, they were a playoff team last year, before the team imploded.
How many games had they played before Pierce was hurt? They weren't a better team than Toronto last year even with everyone healthy.

Plus you don't take into account that the bench is thin, ridiculously so at the 1 and 5, and that they'll need to score 110 every night because their opponents will score 100+ no problem on that defense, that this was not exactly Allen's first major reconstructive surgery, well... they aren't winning 50+ games.

Oh yes, and I am a Celtic fan. Not a *****.
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:51 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

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Yes; they should be better than everyone besides Detroit, barring a large signing.

Why not Detroit? They lost to Cleveland in 6, lost their confidence and may lose Billups, Saunders, among others.


Quote:
If you read my post, I explained how Pierce missed over 35 games, and a stretch where he missed 24 straight (where the Celtics went 2-22). Half the season they were being led in scoring by Ryan Gomes, who's now the 6th best player on the team.

That's my point. Their going to be even more reliant on 3 players than last year. Better hope Pierce, Tony and Ray Allen make full recoveries.


Quote:
Then it would hurt them, and wouldn't be a top 5 seed obviously What would happen to the Nets if Kidd went down? THEN WHAT?

Then the Nets would being hurting.. but I'm specifically comparing the C's to the Knicks who lost all the players I listed earlier but because of their superior depth, still finished with a better record than the C's. And given the Celtics history of bad luck (Bias, R.Lewis, Duncan Lotto, last season, etc..) and players with injuries, I can see them having another bust of a season.


Quote:
Rondo production wasn't inconsistent, but his minutes were last year. If you ever watched the Celtics last year, you could tell he was the guy the Celtics were going to keep based solely on his potential. He won't shoot the ball, but he makes great decisions, has incredible speed (40 time may be top 3 in the league)

He's also very young and is backed-up by another young player who the team wishes they never acquired in Telfair. I think it will be hard for this team win w/o a competent veteran PG.

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Center? Theo is being rumored as trade bait, but it's possible he could really strengthen the middle if he comes back healthy as well.

Another injured player I forgot about.. he's also ancient.


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No, they were a playoff team last year, before the team imploded. Now with the emergence of Al Jefferson, Tony Allen coming back healthy, Pierce coming back healthy, and Ray coming into form, makes them the Atlanta favorite.

When were they a playoff team? When they were 4-6? They were never even .500 once last season after starting 0-3.
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max
The Atlantic division will only place 2 teams in the postseason.

New Jersey and Toronto. Which of the two is better? Which of the two will win the division? I dont know. Both are playoff contenders and it would be interesting to see.

Toronto, NJ, Clev, Chi, Det, Miami...thats 6 teams who should make the playoffs because they have playoff caliber teams.

2 spots are left. Milw healthy? Is a playoff contender in my book. The injuries to most of the starters/core really hurt them bigtime. At full strength? This team wins atleast 41 games. Enough to get them into the playoffs in the East.


So that leaves you with 1 spot. Good luck Boston and NYK. I dont see 3 playoff teams in the Atlantic. Lets atleast try to be realistic here and knock off the homer crap.

I'm not sold on Milwaukee at all.
Villy and Bogut may be the worst defensive frontcourt that I can think of in recent memory. Bobby Simmons has been nothing but an injured bust since they signed him, they have plenty of FA's to worry about in Mo Williams, Bell, Patterson and Boykins, plus a #6 pick that doesn't want to play for them. They also have an extremely thin bench consisting of players that would probably not make most teams (Greer, Noel, Markota). And to top it off, their star player (Redd) is only a borderline all-star.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:01 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

the real key for the Nets lies in the bench.

have Marcus Williams, Josh Boone, Hassan Adams, and Antoine Wright been working on their confidence levels? have they been drilling on defense? do they feel they can play their PT to the max? last season, the inconsistency often came from the 2nd unit playing like crap then overwhelming the starters with the assignment of coming back from 10 down or something.

Moore (who said he will come back to the Nets for less money hell he was even quoted as saying Jason Kidd makes him good) and Nachbar are sure things off the bench.

if Sean Williams can learn not to get caught smokin' dope and block about 2-3 shots a game, and get garbage buckets, then that's all we can ask from a role player.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:04 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

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Originally Posted by VCDrivesAPorscheToWork
the real key for the Nets lies in the bench.

have Marcus Williams, Josh Boone, Hassan Adams, and Antoine Wright been working on their confidence levels? have they been drilling on defense? do they feel they can play their PT to the max? last season, the inconsistency often came from the 2nd unit playing like crap then overwhelming the starters with the assignment of coming back from 10 down or something.

Moore (who said he will come back to the Nets for less money hell he was even quoted as saying Jason Kidd makes him good) and Nachbar are sure things off the bench.
if Sean Williams can learn not to get caught smokin' dope and block about 2-3 shots a game, and get garbage buckets, then that's all we can ask from a role player.

I was just reading today how Moore's agent has said about 20 teams in the L have contacted him about Moore. And some of his quotes didn't sound very promising. Not a goood sign esp. given the money being handed Walton and Kapono. Also thinking about what another poster said about the Yi situation, you have to remember agents are all about their cleints making money, and thus the agent making money. I think Moore is getting the MLE from some team. I just hope it is the Nets
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:06 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckOakley
I was just reading today how Moore's agent has said about 20 teams in the L have contacted him about Moore. And some of his quotes didn't sound very promising. Not a goood sign esp. given the money being handed Walton and Kapono. Also thinking about what another poster said about the Yi situation, you have to remember agents are all about their cleints making money, and thus the agent making money. I think Moore is getting the MLE from some team. I just hope it is the Nets



Newark Star Ledger has reported Thorn will cap Moore's salary in the $3.5 million range. and then he will use the rest of the MLE for another piece.

yes agent wants to make money, but Moore makes the final decision. hopefully, Moore sticks around, his energy and hustle would only bolster this team
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:22 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

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Originally Posted by SuperboyXX0018
The Knicks will be better than the celtics, and it's a toss up between the nets and the Knicks for second behind the Raptors.
Knicks are better than the Nets and Celts... Every Year!

Quote:
Nope. I'm a huge Celtics fan, but this isn't happening.


How quickly "huge fans" forget. Did you see the 2003 season?

This lineup:

PG-Kenny Anderson
SG-Paul Pierce
SF-Eric Williams
PF-Antoine Walker
C-Tony Battie
6. Walter Mccarty
7. Vitaly Potapenko
8. Kedrick Brown

Was the second best record in the Eastern conference and they went to the ECF. Are you going to argue that this years line-up has less talent then 2002? You completely under-estimate Paul Pierce, but that's cool.

Quote:
And the year before that, at full capacity, they didn't make the playoffs. They've added some, but not enough to catapult them to 50+ game winners. No way. Take off the gleen glasses.

Did you watch the year before that? Gerald Green was a rookie,Al Jefferson was injured the entire season. And we just lost GP and Antoine Walker. Not too mention Tony Allen...

That team played .500+ ball for the first half of the season until we made a groundbreaking trade getting rid of our second best player (RD), Mark Blount, Marcus Banks, and Justin Reed for two scrubs (Kandi and Wally). This deadline deal caused the team to collapse after the deadline. I hardly call that "full strength"

Quote:
He's also very young and is backed-up by another young player who the team wishes they never acquired in Telfair. I think it will be hard for this team win w/o a competent veteran PG.


Brevin Knight looks like he will be signed, fyi.

Quote:
Unfortunately, with the players the Celtics have, his speed means...not that much. They'll run a half court set which Rondo is ill-equipped for because you need a guy who can shoot the rock.


Why would the suddenly become a "half court" team? Jesus, have you ever watched Rondo when he is on the court? He f*cking forces the team to run. He's also a legit pg, in other words, pass-first. He doesn't need to shoot with 4 other guys on the court that will be able to finish with ease (including the best shooter in the league). You make zero sense when you say this team will run half-court sets...

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Another injured player I forgot about.. he's also ancient.


Thirty-four is the new "ancient"

Quote:
How many games had they played before Pierce was hurt? They weren't a better team than Toronto last year even with everyone healthy.


Actually, they were at the time. If you look at the time Pierce was injured, the Celts were at .500 and leading the division (I believe the record was like 12-12ish at the time). And That was before the emergence of Al Jefferson (Doc sucks at seeing talent)

Quote:
Plus you don't take into account that the bench is thin, ridiculously so at the 1 and 5, and that they'll need to score 110 every night because their opponents will score 100+ no problem on that defense, that this was not exactly Allen's first major reconstructive surgery, well... they aren't winning 50+ games.


Their bench is young, not so "thin". Perk, Allen, Green, Powe, Gomes, baby Shaq, and soon to be Knight. All of them will continue to improve with experience, and there's no telling how Allen will bounce back from his surgery.

Basically, if healthy, they are winning 50+... easily. It's the f*cking East.

Quote:
Oh yes, and I am a Celtic fan. Not a *****.


Actually, no you sound like the rest of the Celtic homers. By homers, I mean by being against the Ray Allen trade. Some idiot thought Delonte West was going to be better than Ray Allen, and Wally Szczerbiak was the second coming of Rick Barry.

I actually separated myself from the generic fanbase because I loved this trade. Most homers thought we should have traded Pierce for garbage and drafted Jeff Green . Instead, the Celtics are now the Atlantic favorite, and will continue to push themselves to be serious contenders.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:57 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

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How quickly "huge fans" forget. Did you see the 2003 season?
Don't f*cking patronize me, please.

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Was the second best record in the Eastern conference and they went to the ECF. Are you going to argue that this years line-up has less talent then 2002?
A couple of things. First of all, this isn't 2002. Secondly, that team was actually, you know, well coached, played defense, and had gritty, clutch roleplayers.

Quote:
You completely under-estimate Paul Pierce, but that's cool.
You conveniently haven't read threads where I've talked about how awesome Pierce is and how he damn near singlehandedly made it to he Finals and dragged that atrocious '03-'04 team in the playoffs, but hey, that's cool.

Quote:
That team played .500+ ball for the first half of the season until we made a groundbreaking trade getting rid of our second best player (RD), Mark Blount, Marcus Banks, and Justin Reed for two scrubs (Kandi and Wally). This deadline deal caused the team to collapse after the deadline. I hardly call that "full strength"
Right. They were a .500 team. Also, that year, Wally was not a scrub.

Quote:

Why would the suddenly become a "half court" team?
Are you for real?

You actually bought into the fact that just because Rivers and Ainge say they want a running team that they actually are? For real? They're not a fastbreak team and haven't been for years. And they won't be this year. One player can't form an effective running offense when the four others are better suited to a halfcourt.

Quote:
Jesus, have you ever watched Rondo when he is on the court? He f*cking forces the team to run. He's also a legit pg, in other words, pass-first.
I'm not willing to debate with you if you keep treating me like an infant. You have a penchant for being extremely patronizing and codescending towards those who disagree with you. As for Rondo, yeah, he is a legit pg. Unfortunately, it is hard to create when the other team is daring you to shoot 15 footers all day.

He doesn't need to shoot with 4 other guys on the court that will be able to finish with ease (including the best shooter in the league). You make zero sense when you say this team will run half-court sets...

You simply cannot be serious. This team is not a fastbreak team and has not been for years, as I said. The teams three best players are all HALF COURT players. There is absolutely no way. Take off the green glasses, pal, it will do you good.

Seriously, I am not arguing with somebody who actually believes that the roster the Celtics have right now is conducive to being a running team. Wake up.
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:27 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Don't f*cking patronize me, please.


A couple of things. First of all, this isn't 2002. Secondly, that team was actually, you know, well coached, played defense, and had gritty, clutch roleplayers.


Jimmy was an average coach who couldn't make it in the NBA after he left the Celtics (wait, didn't he get another job somewhere?). And regardless, look at the team, just look at it. None of those players Pierce had were legit lock-down defenders, or even great shotblockers (Battie was the team leader). Walker jacked up as many 3s whenever possible at a Jermaine O'Neal-esque percentage, and they still managed to be 50 game winners.

Quote:
You conveniently haven't read threads where I've talked about how awesome Pierce is and how he damn near singlehandedly made it to he Finals and dragged that atrocious '03-'04 team in the playoffs, but hey, that's cool.
I never said you disrespect him, I'm saying you're underestimating his factor on this ball-club. He has a lot more talent to work with this year than he has his entire career. I have faith that he'll make it work, you don't seem to think he can. That's cool, though.

Quote:
Right. They were a .500 team. Also, that year, Wally was not a scrub.


They were above .500 until Wally got there, then they immediately collapsed (Lost 9 straight immediately after the trade to lose their playoff spot, and never looked back after).


Quote:
Are you for real?


You can't talk about talking "condescending" towards someone and then keep saying the crap like "am I for real" and "green goggle wearer".

Quote:
You actually bought into the fact that just because Rivers and Ainge say they want a running team that they actually are? For real? They're not a fastbreak team and haven't been for years. And they won't be this year. One player can't form an effective running offense when the four others are better suited to a halfcourt.

I buy that's what Ainge was trying to build, Doc is just incompetent on how to run proper fast breaks. Regardless, you missed my point. Whenever I see Rondo on the floor, he pushes the pace. You'll see an outlet and he's running his f*cking ass down the floor and he rewards guys that ran with him with open looks. That's one reason why I bought Rondo's game so well last year. Who unlike Telfair and even Delonte, actually didn't seem to listen to Doc's scheme (Could have resulted in his long benching).

Quote:
I'm not willing to debate with you if you keep treating me like an infant. You have a penchant for being extremely patronizing and codescending towards those who disagree with you.

I don't see why you're taking it like that. I'm just talking basketball, I haven't once attacked you, but then you go start insinuating that I must be a homer if I buy into two superstars and a legit bigman being a contender (I'm sorry?).

Quote:
As for Rondo, yeah, he is a legit pg. Unfortunately, it is hard to create when the other team is daring you to shoot 15 footers all day.


Yeah, he shouldn't need to worry about that if they are in a running game 65% of the game.


Quote:
You simply cannot be serious. This team is not a fastbreak team and has not been for years, as I said. The teams three best players are all HALF COURT players. There is absolutely no way. Take off the green glasses, pal, it will do you good.


What is a "half court" player? Ray Allen fits into any fast break perfectly (Don't think Phoenix would LOVE him instead of James Jones?), Paul Pierce has outwardly expressed his willingness to join in a running game. And being such a dominant slasher, should fit in well cutting and slashing. And Jefferson, yeah , he does have a good slowdown game. However, his quickness enables him to be a powerful finisher on a fast break as well. His nose around the rim is a great for frequent drop-down passes from Rondo when his two wings aren't open.

I honestly don't buy the concept of "half court players" unless we are talking about players like Shaq, Eddy Curry, and the rest of the out of shape players in the NBA.

Quote:
Seriously, I am not arguing with somebody who actually believes that the roster the Celtics have right now is conducive to being a running team. Wake up.

I'm awake, I watched the team while Rondo was on the court. They run.

Don't want to argue with me? Then don't, debate it.
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:30 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

1. Raptors
2. Nets
3. Knicks
4. Boston
5. Sixers

I still think Knicks can move up to the 2nd seed maybe 1st if we stay healthy, but we have to prove it first.
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:43 AM   #42
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

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Jimmy was an average coach who couldn't make it in the NBA after he left the Celtics (wait, didn't he get another job somewhere?). And regardless, look at the team, just look at it. None of those players Pierce had were legit lock-down defenders, or even great shotblockers (Battie was the team leader).
The big thing about O'Brien is that he (well, technically, Harter, who basically follows O'Bie wherever he goes) taught defense. The team wasn't full of shutdown defenders or shotblockers, no, but they all were prepared to clamp down every single night and played very, very good team defense. The offensive scheme was nonexistent, yes, but you're underestimating the passing, rebounding, and, most importantly, leadership Walker brought to the team in the C's first stay. Did that team overachieve? Absolutely. It's a testament to how good Pierce and Walker were together. Is it possible to happen again? Yes, but I just don't think so. Not this year.

Quote:
They were above .500 until Wally got there, then they immediately collapsed (Lost 9 straight immediately after the trade to lose their playoff spot, and never looked back after).
Fact remains Wally didn't play like a scrub in Boston when he was healthy, which was extremely rare, granted.

Quote:
You can't talk about talking "condescending" towards someone and then keep saying the crap like "am I for real" and "green goggle wearer".
Sorry, I tend to get testy when I get treated like a little kid who has never watched the Boston Celtics play before.

Quote:
I buy that's what Ainge was trying to build, Doc is just incompetent on how to run proper fast breaks.
Agreed, and that's why - as I said - for the last few years, the offense has revolved mainly around West dribbling the ball up the court, handing off to Perkins, who passes to Pierce and then everybody gets out of the way. The Boston Celtics have not been a running team and haven't been for years. I think this is actually where you miss my point.

Quote:
I don't see why you're taking it like that. I'm just talking basketball, I haven't once attacked you, but then you go start insinuating that I must be a homer if I buy into two superstars and a legit bigman being a contender (I'm sorry?).
Attacked me? No, but you have treated me like an infant who doesn't have a clue.

Also, you still haven't addressed the horrendous bench situation at the 1 and 5 (and Ratliff won't play significant minutes this year, take that to the bank) and the atrocious defense. As I said, this team will need to score 110 every night because they'll give up 100 no sweat. Still waiting for an answer to that one.

Quote:
What is a "half court" player? Ray Allen fits into any fast break perfectly (Don't think Phoenix would LOVE him instead of James Jones?), Paul Pierce has outwardly expressed his willingness to join in a running game. And being such a dominant slasher, should fit in well cutting and slashing. And Jefferson, yeah , he does have a good slowdown game. However, his quickness enables him to be a powerful finisher on a fast break as well. His nose around the rim is a great for frequent drop-down passes from Rondo when his two wings aren't open.
Pierce just isn't a running player and hasn't run since thirty pounds ago. I don't know how else to say it. He's extremely effective in the halfcourt and I don't see why they would change that. The three best players - Pierce, Jefferson, and Allen - have been halfcourt players for the majority of their careers. They'll have the occasional fastbreak, yeah, but if you're expecting Phoenix Suns lite you're going to be sorely mistaken.

Look, if you want to believe Ainge and Rivers in that they want to institute a running game, fine. They've been saying it for years and it is yet to happen. Four of the five players on the floor are better suited to a halfcourt game at any given time.

EDIT: I don't really know why we're getting hung up on the semantics of a fast break offense when the fifty times more important question is how the Celtics are going to stop anyone from scoring 100+ points night in and night out?

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Old 07-03-2007, 12:38 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

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Originally Posted by Mad Max
The Atlantic division will only place 2 teams in the postseason.

New Jersey and Toronto. Which of the two is better? Which of the two will win the division? I dont know. Both are playoff contenders and it would be interesting to see.

Toronto, NJ, Clev, Chi, Det, Miami...thats 6 teams who should make the playoffs because they have playoff caliber teams.

2 spots are left. Milw healthy? Is a playoff contender in my book. The injuries to most of the starters/core really hurt them bigtime. At full strength? This team wins atleast 41 games. Enough to get them into the playoffs in the East.


So that leaves you with 1 spot. Good luck Boston and NYK. I dont see 3 playoff teams in the Atlantic. Lets atleast try to be realistic here and knock off the homer crap.
How is everyone forgetting about the Wizards? Do people not remember they were the number 1 team in the East at the all star break before their injuries?
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:48 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

The only way I see the Celtics making the playoffs is if Al Jefferson has a monster breakout season, Pierce, and Allen stay healthy, Rondo has a great sophomore season, and they get solid bench play. That's a lot "ifs". Either NJ or Toronto will win the division. I'll give the edge to NJ if they stay healthy.

The Knicks have a scary front line with Randolph, and Curry. If Curry can ever become a consistent rebounder (there's no excuse for this guy not averaging 20/10), and if Knicks can just put it all together, they should be in the playoff hunt. I would put them ahead of Boston.

Last edited by Kujo : 07-03-2007 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:50 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Atlantic...The Winners...The Losers...Who has it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuTangWizard
How is everyone forgetting about the Wizards? Do people not remember they were the number 1 team in the East at the all star break before their injuries?
well the \east was weak even orlando was 1st at sum point last year... this year im thinking a lot of teams are going to improved thus taking the wiz out of the playoff picture
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