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Old 07-03-2007, 05:09 PM   #31
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Karl Malone
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:11 PM   #32
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I vote for Bob Pettit again.

I talked about some of Pettit's strengths last time, so this time I'll mention some more about the other candidate's weaknesses. That's how the politicians do it, so why not.

---

Julius Erving's best years were in the ABA. This list is called the 100 greatest NBA players of all time. And, the ABA was an inferior league. Erving pulled down huge rebounding numbers in the ABA (12.1 per game over 5 seasons); in the NBA, he averaged a more modest 6.7 boards per game over 11 seasons. Erving shot a .322 3-pt percentage with the lightweight ABA ball and .261 in the NBA. The ABA was generally poorer defensively, which is how Erving, otherwise generally considered a weak man-to-man defender, was awarded once for defense.

In the NBA, Erving had some great years. He was awarded an MVP in 1981 and was in the top 5 voting for MVP another 3 seasons from 1980 to 1983. But, here's what I find difficult to accept: Erving isn't the best player from his era not yet picked. Moses Malone joined the NBA the exact same season as Erving (1976-77 when the NBA absorbed the ABA players). Malone was awarded MVPs in 1979, 1982 and 1983. That's 3 to 1.

Moreover, Malone and Erving eventually played on the same team. In 1983 they won the title together and Malone was the regular season and Finals MVP. Erving admitted as much that Malone was the best player on the 76ers, although it's obvious anyhow.

Okay, but Erving was old. It's somewhat unfortunate that Erving didn't play out his whole career in the NBA, although he was still young at 26 when he did join the league. Anyhow, it's not as though Malone didn't have longevity, too. He compares very favorably to Erving there as well. So, how is Erving ranked above Moses?

Influence? Fans, fueled by ESPN and wanting to be entertained, overrate dunking. We all do. Erving's best dunking days were in the ABA, as well. Even so, he doesn't stand out in the history of dunking as much as some seem to suggest. Players like Elgin Baylor and Connie Hawkins had paved the way for Erving, and Erving played with several other great dunkers in his own time, so he wasn't the singular inventor of stylized dunking.

---

Okay, I've kind of built Moses Malone up now, but here goes. Compared to the other centers we've ranked thus far and some of the other greats we haven't thus far, Malone wasn't much defensively. He wasn't much of a shot blocker. Not bad defensively, I suppose, but when ranking the greatest centers, that's a handicap. And, one has to consider his responsibility in not keeping the 76ers a top in the NBA. They won a title, but things went south rather quickly.

---

Elgin Baylor by most accounts was a bad defender. He was awful at dribbling the ball with his left hand. Charley Rosen said "he would have starved to death if forced to eat with his left hand." It's apparent in the footage available, too, if you look for it. He seemed to be able to make one good dribble move to his left after faking right, but no further. And, his dribbling down the court looks amateurish as a result.

And, of course, where's the title? It's not as though he didn't have opportunities, as he played in 8 Finals'. And, the season he retired, Jerry West and the Lakers finally won it. Doesn't one have to hold some of that against Baylor? Him and Chamberlain crowded each other, but the Lakers needed a big man to get over the hump, so it should have been expected tha Baylor would have to adjust and move out. And, some have said that Baylor wasn't disciplined enough or have the work ethic for Sharman's extra practices.

On Baylor's dunking influence, I'll only say that he played much of his career with out the highflying because he was playing on a bad knee. So, the influential, above-the-rim play was only for part of his career.

---

Kobe Bryant has no MVPs and no Finals' MVPs. He has 3 titles, but wasn't the best player on those teams. He has scoring titles and is a good defender. He's like Mike, but isn't that close to Jordan, although many who apparently haven't seen Jordan's career, nor understand the history of basketball, seem to think he is close. And, don't forget, unless you're a psychic, you're not sure how Bryant will finish his career. Someday maybe he is this high on the list, but is he today, is what should be considered.

---

Like Baylor, Karl Malone has no title. He had opportunities, too, and was fortunate enough to have a long career and play with John Stockton. Some of that has to be held against him, especially considering he did have some poor games in the clutch, especially problems involing his FT shooting and turnovers. His playoff resume doesn't favor very well compared to Pettit's in my opinion.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Dr.J


People can talk all they want , but John Havlicek is not underrated. People consider him in the top 12 - 22 range and that's 100% right.
He is an all time legend , won that well deserved Finals MVP in 74 with great players around, like top 50 player Dave Cowens (MVP in 73), Jo Jo White Don Chaney , Don Nelson and young Paul Westphal coming of the bench.
The truth is he was always a great player, but he was one of the 3 best players in the NBA for how many years ??? 3 , 4 , 5 ?? No more than that.
Early in his career, Wilt , Russell, Baylor, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson were much better than him. In the early 70's , he had his best years , but was he better than Lakers Wilt ? He certainly was the best player in the NBA , because we saw the coming of a guy named Lew Alcindor.
Anyway major props to Hondo, he is the fourth better SF ever IMHO, behind Bird, Dr.J and Baylor.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:15 PM   #34
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Dr.J


People can talk all they want , but John Havlicek is not underrated. People consider him in the top 12 - 22 range and that's 100% right.
He is an all time legend , won that well deserved Finals MVP in 74 with great players around, like top 50 player Dave Cowens (MVP in 73), Jo Jo White Don Chaney , Don Nelson and young Paul Westphal coming of the bench.
The truth is he was always a great player, but he was one of the 3 best players in the NBA for how many years ??? 3 , 4 , 5 ?? No more than that.
Early in his career, Wilt , Russell, Baylor, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson were much better than him. In the early 70's , he had his best years , but was he better than Lakers Wilt ? He certainly was the best player in the NBA , because we saw the coming of a guy named Lew Alcindor.
Anyway major props to Hondo, he is the fourth better SF ever IMHO, behind Bird, Dr.J and Baylor.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:15 PM   #35
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

about Kobe..is the criteria accomplishments or how good the player is...Because if it is how good the player was then I'll take Kobe....

do you honestly think Bob Petit is better bball player then Kobe..not accomplishments but a better player then Kobe

Although I havent seen much of Bob Petit...i know he put up some good stats but Im sure a player that good wouldnt stand out more in historical discussions

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Old 07-03-2007, 05:22 PM   #36
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Fence
---

Julius Erving's best years were in the ABA. This list is called the 100 greatest NBA players of all time. And, the ABA was an inferior league. Erving pulled down huge rebounding numbers in the ABA (12.1 per game over 5 seasons); in the NBA, he averaged a more modest 6.7 boards per game over 11 seasons. Erving shot a .322 3-pt percentage with the lightweight ABA ball and .261 in the NBA. The ABA was generally poorer defensively, which is how Erving, otherwise generally considered a weak man-to-man defender, was awarded once for defense.

In the NBA, Erving had some great years. He was awarded an MVP in 1981 and was in the top 5 voting for MVP another 3 seasons from 1980 to 1983. But, here's what I find difficult to accept: Erving isn't the best player from his era not yet picked. Moses Malone joined the NBA the exact same season as Erving (1976-77 when the NBA absorbed the ABA players). Malone was awarded MVPs in 1979, 1982 and 1983. That's 3 to 1.

.


Dr.J was considered by fans in the late 70's the second best player behind Jabbar.
He is the idol of guys like Magic and Michael. He brought the game to another level and was much more important to the history of Basketball than a guy like Moses.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:26 PM   #37
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

why does everyone forget Moses Malone? The dude won 3 MVPs for god's sake. a finals MVP. Made all defensive first team and all nba first teams. Had a 31/15 season and a 25/18 season. 3rd all time in rebounds, 6th all time in points.

He has everything, title as the best player, individual accolades, gaudy stats, longevity.

Jerry West, Dr J, Baylor have NO business being ranked over him.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Cedric Ceballos
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Fence
I vote for Bob Pettit again.

I talked about some of Pettit's strengths last time, so this time I'll mention some more about the other candidate's weaknesses. That's how the politicians do it, so why not.

---

Julius Erving's best years were in the ABA. This list is called the 100 greatest NBA players of all time. And, the ABA was an inferior league. Erving pulled down huge rebounding numbers in the ABA (12.1 per game over 5 seasons); in the NBA, he averaged a more modest 6.7 boards per game over 11 seasons. Erving shot a .322 3-pt percentage with the lightweight ABA ball and .261 in the NBA. The ABA was generally poorer defensively, which is how Erving, otherwise generally considered a weak man-to-man defender, was awarded once for defense.

In the NBA, Erving had some great years. He was awarded an MVP in 1981 and was in the top 5 voting for MVP another 3 seasons from 1980 to 1983. But, here's what I find difficult to accept: Erving isn't the best player from his era not yet picked. Moses Malone joined the NBA the exact same season as Erving (1976-77 when the NBA absorbed the ABA players). Malone was awarded MVPs in 1979, 1982 and 1983. That's 3 to 1.

Moreover, Malone and Erving eventually played on the same team. In 1983 they won the title together and Malone was the regular season and Finals MVP. Erving admitted as much that Malone was the best player on the 76ers, although it's obvious anyhow.

Okay, but Erving was old. It's somewhat unfortunate that Erving didn't play out his whole career in the NBA, although he was still young at 26 when he did join the league. Anyhow, it's not as though Malone didn't have longevity, too. He compares very favorably to Erving there as well. So, how is Erving ranked above Moses?

Influence? Fans, fueled by ESPN and wanting to be entertained, overrate dunking. We all do. Erving's best dunking days were in the ABA, as well. Even so, he doesn't stand out in the history of dunking as much as some seem to suggest. Players like Elgin Baylor and Connie Hawkins had paved the way for Erving, and Erving played with several other great dunkers in his own time, so he wasn't the singular inventor of stylized dunking.

---

Okay, I've kind of built Moses Malone up now, but here goes. Compared to the other centers we've ranked thus far and some of the other greats we haven't thus far, Malone wasn't much defensively. He wasn't much of a shot blocker. Not bad defensively, I suppose, but when ranking the greatest centers, that's a handicap. And, one has to consider his responsibility in not keeping the 76ers a top in the NBA. They won a title, but things went south rather quickly.

---

Elgin Baylor by most accounts was a bad defender. He was awful at dribbling the ball with his left hand. Charley Rosen said "he would have starved to death if forced to eat with his left hand." It's apparent in the footage available, too, if you look for it. He seemed to be able to make one good dribble move to his left after faking right, but no further. And, his dribbling down the court looks amateurish as a result.

And, of course, where's the title? It's not as though he didn't have opportunities, as he played in 8 Finals'. And, the season he retired, Jerry West and the Lakers finally won it. Doesn't one have to hold some of that against Baylor? Him and Chamberlain crowded each other, but the Lakers needed a big man to get over the hump, so it should have been expected tha Baylor would have to adjust and move out. And, some have said that Baylor wasn't disciplined enough or have the work ethic for Sharman's extra practices.

On Baylor's dunking influence, I'll only say that he played much of his career with out the highflying because he was playing on a bad knee. So, the influential, above-the-rim play was only for part of his career.

---

Kobe Bryant has no MVPs and no Finals' MVPs. He has 3 titles, but wasn't the best player on those teams. He has scoring titles and is a good defender. He's like Mike, but isn't that close to Jordan, although many who apparently haven't seen Jordan's career, nor understand the history of basketball, seem to think he is close. And, don't forget, unless you're a psychic, you're not sure how Bryant will finish his career. Someday maybe he is this high on the list, but is he today, is what should be considered.

---

Like Baylor, Karl Malone has no title. He had opportunities, too, and was fortunate enough to have a long career and play with John Stockton. Some of that has to be held against him, especially considering he did have some poor games in the clutch, especially problems involing his FT shooting and turnovers. His playoff resume doesn't favor very well compared to Pettit's in my opinion.

Nice post. I like how you thoroughly explain everything. Pettit is being underrated. I'd seriously consider voting for him too, but I have to stick with Mikan.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:42 PM   #40
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
about Kobe..is the criteria accomplishments or how good the player is...Because if it is how good the player was then I'll take Kobe....

I don't believe anyone set forth any strict criteria. It's open to debate, which is the way I prefer it. The one thing is that it's the 100 "Greatest" NBA players of all time. Not the "best," which is different. To develop your criteria, you first have to define "great." "Great" can mean "best" in part, but it can also be "most influential" or "most dominating" or "historically significant," "most accomplishments," etc. Then, there's how much importance or weight you give to each aspect. It's not simple, although, I suppose, it can be for you if you want.

Quote:
do you honestly think Bob Petit is better bball player then Kobe..not accomplishments but a better player then Kobe

Although I havent seen much of Bob Petit...i know he put up some good stats but Im sure a player that good wouldnt stand out more in historical discussions

Pettit has ranked above Bryant in these kind of discussions before. Because not everyone is going to just ask "who's the best?" I don't--I consider multiple things, and that's where I came to voting for Pettit. Frankly, Bryant is below several other players, too, on my list.

I've tried to give my reasons and will continue to do so. Moreover, I probably don't consider the NBA of today as superior to the past NBA as others perhaps do, so that might be a partial explanation, too. I've also researched quite a bit about NBA history and am very interested in it, so I have a lot of appreciation for past players.

Anyhow, I'm not sure how to answer who's the best with certainty. Who's playing in whose era? Does Pettit get the benefit of the luxeries that make Bryant a better player (trainers, multiple coaches, strength conditioning, etc.)? Or, does Kobe have to lose much of his strength and play in a faster-paced game more dominated by big men? Because, that makes a huge difference.
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:54 PM   #41
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakers_forever
Dr.J was considered by fans in the late 70's the second best player behind Jabbar.

He is the idol of guys like Magic and Michael. He brought the game to another level and was much more important to the history of Basketball than a guy like Moses.

That's probably the best reason (his influence) I see for one to vote for Erving at this point. I just don't think that weights heavily enough to top a player who was clearly better than him in the same era.

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Answer
Nice post. I like how you thoroughly explain everything. Pettit is being underrated. I'd seriously consider voting for him too, but I have to stick with Mikan.

Thanks.

I didn't even go negative with Mikan because I think he's right up there. I've said I think he dominated his era more than any basketball player ever. I agree with what you said in you earlier post about him. I did seriously consider voting for Mikan before Pettit, but barely didn't.
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:23 PM   #42
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Fence
---

Julius Erving's best years were in the ABA. This list is called the 100 greatest NBA players of all time. And, the ABA was an inferior league. Erving pulled down huge rebounding numbers in the ABA (12.1 per game over 5 seasons); in the NBA, he averaged a more modest 6.7 boards per game over 11 seasons. Erving shot a .322 3-pt percentage with the lightweight ABA ball and .261 in the NBA. The ABA was generally poorer defensively, which is how Erving, otherwise generally considered a weak man-to-man defender, was awarded once for defense.
Damn, I sould have been more clear, the ABA years of greats like Dr. J, Gervin, Moses, Barry should be included with this list. The ABA is very much part of NBA's history.


When people talk about Docs career, his ABA career is always mentioned, so I think it should be on this list andnother list alike. While the ABA in the 70's was a completely different league then the NBA, when it got bought out by the NBA, the NBA didn't act like the ABA didn't exist, it embraced it, even taking the three point line and slam dunk contest. It's sort of like when WWE bought the WCW and ECW, they didn't act like it never existed?


So don't punish guys like Dr. J who had their best years in another league.
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:29 PM   #43
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Elgin Baylor
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:48 PM   #44
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I said Baylor 2 spots back ,,, so I will keep saying Elgin
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:50 PM   #45
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Default Re: Official #12 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
Damn, I sould have been more clear, the ABA years of greats like Dr. J, Gervin, Moses, Barry should be included with this list. The ABA is very much part of NBA's history.

When people talk about Docs career, his ABA career is always mentioned, so I think it should be on this list andnother list alike. While the ABA in the 70's was a completely different league then the NBA, when it got bought out by the NBA, the NBA didn't act like the ABA didn't exist, it embraced it, even taking the three point line and slam dunk contest. It's sort of like when WWE bought the WCW and ECW, they didn't act like it never existed?


So don't punish guys like Dr. J who had their best years in another league.

The NBA game was based very much so on college basketball. College basketball was the model for NBA, or BAA (Basketball Association of America) as it was originally called, originally. Should a player's college career count here?

Does the NBL (National Basketball League) count? The BAA absorbed many of the teams from that league (including the Lakers), which, frankly, had better players than the BAA. When the NBL collapse, the BAA became the NBA. How about other early pro leagues?

The Harlem Globetrotters, the Euro leagues, CBA, Developmental League, etc. have had close links to the NBA and have been mutually influenced by each other, so does a player's career in those leagues count?

Where's the line? And, if we count the ABA, does that mean that a guy like Mel Daniels, who averaged 11.5 MPG in his 11-game NBA career should make a list called "The 100 Greatest NBA Players of All Time" because he had a great ABA career. How about players who had great ABA careers but no NBA career--should they be potentially listed?

The ABA was always a seperate league--a league at odds with the NBA, actually. Of course the NBA doesn't pretend it didn't exist, just as they don't pretend the NBL didn't exist. They often talk about college careers in their profiles of NBA players.

So, I don't think ABA careers should count. If it were a list of the greatest professional basketball players of all time then it could easily include the ABA and the early pro leagues and then exlude college, etc., but that's not what's advertised.

Quote:
It's sort of like when WWE bought the WCW and ECW, they didn't act like it never existed?

I have no idea what you're talking about there. I don't watch, nor follow, that kind of stuff.
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