Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > Off the Court Lounge

Off the Court Lounge Basketball fans talk about everything EXCEPT basketball here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-05-2007, 12:55 AM   #1
ConanRulesNBC
Very good NBA starter
 
ConanRulesNBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 8,577
ConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this board
Default Wrestling fans...

Since there are quite a few wrestling fans on this forum I was just wondering if any of you knew who Vince Russo is? I was a big wrestling fan in the late '90s during the nWo/WCW era and especially the WWF/Attitude Era. I always thought it was Vince McMahon who was mostly responsible for what we saw on TV back then. But around October '99 I remember going online and reading that two writers for the WWF (Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara) left and signed with WCW.

At first, I thought nothing of it and didn't think anything would really change. But I noticed that the WWF changed right away. They moved away from the storylines and went back to basic wrestling. I started noticing in WCW that this Vince Russo guy was actually doing some pretty cool things and found out that he was mostly responsible for what the WWF did in the Attitude Era. He was responsible for writing the Austin/McMahon storyline, the crazy things DX did, etc. And in WCW at the time that I found out who he was he was responsible for the New Blood vs. Millionaires Club. Even though WCW was already going downhill by that point I thought that storyline was great.

I remember WCW went "dark" for a week while they brought back Vince Russo and Eric Bischoff. They came back on and started over. They stripped the wrestlers of all the major titles and put them up in tournaments. They started all new storylines. The really cool thing was they used real life situations between the wrestlers in the actual feud. For example, Hogan had been going on radio shows and doing interviews where he would complain about the new wrestlers and went after Billy Kidman. He said Kidman couldn't "draw flies". On the first Russo/Bischoff show they had Kidman go out there and call out Hogan. Kidman said "you say I can't draw flies... well who would know better than a pile of sh*t like you?" Never before had I seen a wrestling show like this. It was just awesome.

A lot of hardcore fans will complain about him because he doesn't put on a regular rasslin' show with one hour wrestling matches. Instead he'll use more of the sports-entertainment approach which is why I'm a fan. I like the characters and storylines more than the actual wrestling itself. I just started this topic because he really hasn't gotten the credit he deserves. The WWE goes out of their way to ignore him and rarely mention his name. And the truth is the WWF hasn't been the same since he left. People on here talk about how great the Attitude Era was and he really was responsible for a lot of it.



ConanRulesNBC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 12:57 AM   #2
L.Kizzle
ISH's Negro Historian
 
L.Kizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Houston, TX -
Posts: 35,044
L.Kizzle is considered somewhat coolL.Kizzle is considered somewhat coolL.Kizzle is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

He supposedly killed WCW. I remember read about him alot on the countless wrestling rumours sites in the late 90's early 2000's
L.Kizzle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 01:03 AM   #3
ConanRulesNBC
Very good NBA starter
 
ConanRulesNBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 8,577
ConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this board
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Yeah that's what a lot of "insiders" say. Even though it's total BS. Eric Bischoff did way more damage to WCW in 1999 than Vince Russo ever did. People just hate his kind of wrestling... they prefer more of the technical wrestling with no talking, no storylines, generic looking wrestlers coming out and putting on an hour long match with headlocks. It's kind of pathetic, IMO. I'd take "Stone Cold" Steve Austin/Vince McMahon, The Rock, DX, Undertaker, nWo, the Wolfpac, etc. any day.
ConanRulesNBC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 01:29 AM   #4
proof
Banned
 
proof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 319
proof has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

I loved WCW. I loved when it ended on Nitro and there would always be a brawl. NWO vs NWO vs WCW(vs Ravens Flock vs 4 horsemen...I think they were part of those storylines as well) and fans would always throw in drinks and toilet paper.

Im not sure why WCW tanked, I read an article a while ago that the AOL and TimeWarner deal was one of the reasons. I also hear Bischoff was an idiot and helped run it to the ground. I saw a bret hart interview where he blamed bischoff. He said sometimes they would run parts of a show unrehearsed. lol
proof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 02:02 AM   #5
El Kabong
Where Eagles Dare
 
El Kabong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 7,639
El Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanRulesNBC
Yeah that's what a lot of "insiders" say. Even though it's total BS. Eric Bischoff did way more damage to WCW in 1999 than Vince Russo ever did. People just hate his kind of wrestling... they prefer more of the technical wrestling with no talking, no storylines, generic looking wrestlers coming out and putting on an hour long match with headlocks. It's kind of pathetic, IMO. I'd take "Stone Cold" Steve Austin/Vince McMahon, The Rock, DX, Undertaker, nWo, the Wolfpac, etc. any day.
That type of wrestling hasn't been around since the 70's. Eric Bischoff wasn't in favour of that. You can have talking and wrestlers with characters, but at the end of the day they need to have a match to seal the deal, and when that happens you want that match to be awesome.

It's all he said, she said in regards to who killed WCW. Vince Russo is a complete and utter hack IMO. He may be able to write good story lines sometimes, but you put in in charge of the entire thing like he was in WCW, it's absolute chaos. He catters to the internet crowd only. Believe me I watched every piece of WCW during his reign there and it was complte BS. His shoot promo's, the constant swerves (That became so predictable the only way he could actually swerve the fans would be to not do one in the first place.) and utter lack of storyline continuation week to week. His insistence that every wrestler have a character, so instead of having the Cruisers go out and put on a good match for 15 minutes we get Madusa and Oklahoma fighting over the Cruiserweight title. Plus the crap he pulled with Hulk Hogan.

Vince Russo didn't kill WCW, but he left it in such a state that it was impossible to revive. When Bischoff left, they were down, but they still could have pulled themselves out of the hole, but Russo didn't help one iota.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proof
I loved WCW. I loved when it ended on Nitro and there would always be a brawl. NWO vs NWO vs WCW(vs Ravens Flock vs 4 horsemen...I think they were part of those storylines as well) and fans would always throw in drinks and toilet paper.

Im not sure why WCW tanked, I read an article a while ago that the AOL and TimeWarner deal was one of the reasons. I also hear Bischoff was an idiot and helped run it to the ground. I saw a bret hart interview where he blamed bischoff. He said sometimes they would run parts of a show unrehearsed. lol
That was part of the reason. Once Ted Turner was removed, he basically lost his one ally who was in a position of power. Once that happened he was constantly vetoed in regards to everythign he wanted to do such having a WCW show on NBC (Like WWE has with that Saturday Main Event show) and a whole list of other things. They would sometimes run things unrehearsed and would also change things on the fly. For example if a title change would happen on Raw then WCW would do one.

Last edited by El Kabong : 07-05-2007 at 02:10 AM.
El Kabong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 02:42 AM   #6
ConanRulesNBC
Very good NBA starter
 
ConanRulesNBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 8,577
ConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this board
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Yeah, I agree that there should be wrestling. I'm just not into the serious kind of wrestling that most of the wrestling fans on the net enjoy like Ring of Honor. To me, plain old wrestling is just boring. As good as some of these wrestlers are in the ring I just can't sit there and take it seriously even if they put on a "5 star" match. The problem with wrestling right now is that they're not giving the fans a reason to want to see any of these matches. There is little buildup to any of these matches.

Like the end of RAW this past week. Lashley spears Cena... ok... could be pretty good. But what's the reason? Why did he spear Cena? The "creative" team will come up with a crappy storylines for them and give us no reason to care about what happens during their feud.

It's not like the nWo where you could get behind the wrestlers. Especially the nWo/WCW where there were lots of fans on both sides. Bischoff did such an incredible job with that storyline (before he let it spread out to 4 different versions of the nWo). Hollywood Hulk Hogan, The Outsiders, Sting with The Crow gimmick, Goldberg, etc. They might not have put on "5 star" matches but who cares? All of them had mic skills and knew how to work the crowd.

Same with Steve Austin, Undertaker, DX, The Rock and everyone in the WWF. They didn't even need to put on wrestling matches to get ratings back then. The fans wanted to see things like DX "invading" WCW, Steve Austin driving a beer truck out to the ring and spraying Vince McMahon and The Rock. They wanted to hear The Rock come out and entertain them on the mic.

Wrestling is really missing guys like that right now. And it's not even like they don't have anyone really entertaining... they do. Guys like Mr. Kennedy, MVP, Edge, Orton, Cena, etc. but the WWE has no idea what to do with them. Cena caught on because he was allowed to be himself at first. When he was on SmackDown starting out he was that edgy heel wrestler the fans started to get into like Austin and The Rock before him. The WWE took something that was working out pretty decent and turned him into a joke now.

I don't think it was Vince Russo's fault that WCW went out of business at all. I don't think he was ever given a fair chance. He came to WCW in October '99, everyone got injured or left and then he was sent home in January 2000. He came back with Bischoff in April 2000 and again was sent home in September 2000. When Russo wasn't writing between January and April 2000 the ratings went from a solid 3.4/3.5 or around that area to low 2's.

I thought Russo did a really good job in WCW but it went unnoticed because the WWF was so popular at the time still. But storylines like the Powers that Be, New Blood vs. Millionaires Club. The hilarious angles like David Arquette winning the WCW world title, Norman Smiley becoming hardcore champ and some how winning even though he was always afraid of his opponents and got his ass kicked through out most of the match. How about "who betta than Kanyon?", The Misfits in Action, Scott Steiner, Booker T finally winning the WCW world title? He did lots of things that go unnoticed because WCW was already a mess when he took over.

And yeah I also hated how he handled the whole Hogan situation. Hogan's my favorite wrestler and it sucked how he got treated back then. But I did really enjoy his "Stone Cold" Steve Austin kind of gimmick. Where he came to the arena driving the classic Dodge Charger, wrestled in street clothes and wore that one shirt that said F.U.N.B. (F**k You New Blood). It sucks that things didn't work out.

Last edited by ConanRulesNBC : 07-05-2007 at 02:44 AM.
ConanRulesNBC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 03:23 AM   #7
El Kabong
Where Eagles Dare
 
El Kabong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 7,639
El Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterEl Kabong is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanRulesNBC
Yeah, I agree that there should be wrestling. I'm just not into the serious kind of wrestling that most of the wrestling fans on the net enjoy like Ring of Honor. To me, plain old wrestling is just boring. As good as some of these wrestlers are in the ring I just can't sit there and take it seriously even if they put on a "5 star" match. The problem with wrestling right now is that they're not giving the fans a reason to want to see any of these matches. There is little buildup to any of these matches.
You're right, I can't watch a wrestling match go for 20 minutes unless it has wrestlers that I give a **** about. Exception maybe for the Cruiserweights because they usually do some kick ass high flying stuff. Although I always liked this quote from Mike Tenay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Tenay
What would you rather see? A classic wrestling match between the likes of Flair and Steamboat, or a midget jerking off in a garbage can?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanRulesNBC
I don't think it was Vince Russo's fault that WCW went out of business at all. I don't think he was ever given a fair chance. He came to WCW in October '99, everyone got injured or left and then he was sent home in January 2000. He came back with Bischoff in April 2000 and again was sent home in September 2000. When Russo wasn't writing between January and April 2000 the ratings went from a solid 3.4/3.5 or around that area to low 2's.
Him being sent home was usually his own fault. He also left on his own accord as many times as he was sent packing too. Although I will admit, him being sent home in January was a big mistake because it led to Kevin Sullivan being put in charge and that's why Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko and Saturn all left. Kidman, Konnan and Shane Douglas also were going to leave but they realised that the E wouldn't take them so they all ended up staying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanRulesNBC
I thought Russo did a really good job in WCW but it went unnoticed because the WWF was so popular at the time still. But storylines like the Powers that Be, New Blood vs. Millionaires Club. The hilarious angles like David Arquette winning the WCW world title, Norman Smiley becoming hardcore champ and some how winning even though he was always afraid of his opponents and got his ass kicked through out most of the match. How about "who betta than Kanyon?", The Misfits in Action, Scott Steiner, Booker T finally winning the WCW world title? He did lots of things that go unnoticed because WCW was already a mess when he took over.
Kanyon was doing that "Who's betta" stuff back in 98. He did come up with some good idea, I did like the New Blood VS Millionaires Club idea, but the problem was his entire execution of the thing was piss poor. He had the likes of Shane Douglas, Buff Bagwell and Jeff Jarrett on the New Blood side, Sid Vicious joined up later. They're all in their late 30's, early 40's for crying out loud and have been wrestling for decades. He did use the idea slightly better in TNA with S.E.X VS Tradition. What about Mike Awesome? They steal a big guy like him who can fly like a Cruiserweight, a guy who looked like he could kick your ass and he turned him into "The 70's Guy" and have him host his own show even though he sucks on the mic. Booker T and Scott Steiner were all doing there thing long before he got there.

Russo is good at creating ideas, he just lacks the ability to tell a good story. I swear that guy has writers ADHD because everything's constantly in motion and changing from show to show. He throws so much at you its like slow down so I can process some of what I just saw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanRulesNBC
And yeah I also hated how he handled the whole Hogan situation. Hogan's my favorite wrestler and it sucked how he got treated back then. But I did really enjoy his "Stone Cold" Steve Austin kind of gimmick. Where he came to the arena driving the classic Dodge Charger, wrestled in street clothes and wore that one shirt that said F.U.N.B. (F**k You New Blood). It sucks that things didn't work out.
I liked that bit too. I especially liked it when they made him fight his nephew Horace and Hulk said "There's no way Hulk will fight his own flesh and blood." Then when it came time for the match the porno music starts up and he comes out as Hollywood and just kicked the **** outta him.
El Kabong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 03:29 AM   #8
ConanRulesNBC
Very good NBA starter
 
ConanRulesNBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 8,577
ConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this board
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Quote:
He did use the idea slightly better in TNA with S.E.X VS Tradition.

Yeah I enjoyed that as well. Even without all of the big name wrestlers like he had for the New Blood/Millionaires Club storyline, TNA managed to pull off a decent storyline like that.

Quote:
Then when it came time for the match the porno music starts up and he comes out as Hollywood and just kicked the **** outta him.

Yeah that was awesome. I really liked the Hollywood gimmick but I hated seeing Hulk Hogan come out there and back down from fights and act like a coward. But I loved it when he was a good guy coming out as Hollywood because he had that edge to him with the Hollywood gimmick but he wasn't afraid to fight like Hulk.

Like in this video from the Nitro in '99 right after Hogan turned face.

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance...sh-hogan_sport

Last edited by ConanRulesNBC : 07-05-2007 at 03:31 AM.
ConanRulesNBC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 04:04 AM   #9
lovethetriangle
LAKER FAN FOR LIFE
 
lovethetriangle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Land of 16 NBA Championships
Posts: 3,659
lovethetriangle has an incredible reputation herelovethetriangle has an incredible reputation herelovethetriangle has an incredible reputation herelovethetriangle has an incredible reputation herelovethetriangle has an incredible reputation herelovethetriangle has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

The NWO/Hollywood music was the best!!!
lovethetriangle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 03:49 PM   #10
ConanRulesNBC
Very good NBA starter
 
ConanRulesNBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 8,577
ConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this board
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Yeah that was. I loved the nWo theme song.
ConanRulesNBC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 03:59 PM   #11
Nashformvp
High School Varsity 6th Man
 
Nashformvp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: pervs...
Posts: 606
Nashformvp has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

goldberg left and wcw died pretty simple
Nashformvp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 09:51 PM   #12
TheGame414
Decent college freshman
 
TheGame414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Zookville
Posts: 2,785
TheGame414 has decent reputationTheGame414 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConanRulesNBC
Yeah that's what a lot of "insiders" say. Even though it's total BS. Eric Bischoff did way more damage to WCW in 1999 than Vince Russo ever did. People just hate his kind of wrestling... they prefer more of the technical wrestling with no talking, no storylines, generic looking wrestlers coming out and putting on an hour long match with headlocks. It's kind of pathetic, IMO. I'd take "Stone Cold" Steve Austin/Vince McMahon, The Rock, DX, Undertaker, nWo, the Wolfpac, etc. any day.
That's about as overgeneralized as you can get, and that's being kind, because I could call it flat-out inaccurate.

If "people" (you take a survey, or something? Who are these people) preferred technical wrestling so much, why wasn't Bret Hart as big of a draw as Hulk Hogan? I hate to use him as an example considering what happened two weeks ago, but why did it take Chris Benoit 18 years to hold a major world title?

Russo's brand of "crash TV" made for some compelling television, but on his own he's useless; without McMahon and the WWF creative team to reign him in, not to mention talent like Rock, Austin, Foley, HHH, etc, to work with....well, if you didn't see the horrifying mess that was WCW under his watch, consider yourself lucky.

The WWF's best period actually coincided with the departure of Russo, from late '99 to mid-late '01. It was the best blend of "sports entertainment," compelling, non-gimmicky personas in the upper card like Rock, Triple H, Austin (though he was out with a neck injury for much of this time), Foley, Jericho and others, and top-notch wrestling matches. There were too many legitimate 4-to-5 star matches in this time period to even count.

Don't get me wrong, I don't attribute a whole lot of credit to Russo's departure to this. The additions of Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho, Kurt Angle and others tremendously upgraded the in-ring product, and the storyline product as well.

But I do believe the WWF was better off without Russo. As much credit as you give him- and some deserved- don't forget how idiotic a lot of his stuff was. If it wasn't for Steve Austin, and to a lesser extent DX, The Rock, and Foley, none of the silly-ass "WWF Attitude" BS would have ever mattered anyway. (You're also wrong for giving Undertaker any credit: he's been around forever, he's always gotten a huge reaction from the crowd because of his entrance and his gimmick.....but he's never actually drawn a dime in his life. Any big ratings or huge PPV buyrates he's been a part aren't because of him; they're because he was wrestling the likes of Austin and Rock when they happened.)

As far as your dislike of technical wrestling and your hilariously stupid mischaracterization of it, if you'd rather watch the Undertaker plod around and throw punches than watch Kurt Angle put on an absolute performance, that's your problem.

I also disagree that it was more Bischoff's fault than Russo's fault for WCW's decline. Actually, I don't so much disagree with your opinion than the assertion that any one thing is more responsible than the other; that's a false dichotomy. That place was such a mess that there's more blame to go around than can even be counted, but rest assured plenty lies with both Russo and Bischoff, among many, many others.

The biggest problem that WCW had, obviously, was how many huge stars they had under their nose whose potential went unrealized while in that company. From 1993 to 2000, they had the following wrestlers who went on to main event for WWF/E, win world titles and draw hundreds of millions of dollars for Vince McMahon:

-Steve Austin
-Mick Foley
-Paul Levesque (Triple H)
-Chris Jericho
-Chris Benoit
-Eddie Guerrero
-Rey Mysterio

That's just off the top of my head, seven guys that went on to be WWF/E world champions, guys that main evented Wrestlemanias, guys that drew hundreds of millions of dollars for WWE Inc. The first three, three of the 10 biggest stars in the history of the business.

And none of them came close to realizing their potential in WCW because of the proverbial glass ceiling. And there's way too much blame to go around for that to put that more on one person than any other.

To give Russo credit for utilizing them better in the WWF (at least Austin, Rock and Foley) is partially true, but overgeneralized.

Last edited by TheGame414 : 07-05-2007 at 09:59 PM.
TheGame414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 09:58 PM   #13
TheGame414
Decent college freshman
 
TheGame414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Zookville
Posts: 2,785
TheGame414 has decent reputationTheGame414 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nashformvp
goldberg left and wcw died pretty simple
It's not that simple at all. WCW was on its deathbed for a long time before Goldberg was out the door for good.

Had his push and his character been handled better to begin with, maybe they could've staved off the inevitable for a little longer, but not even Goldberg was enough to hold off the onslaught of Austin, Rock, Triple H and Foley.

Maybe if they'd kept guys like Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Raven, etc, and gradually pushed those guys to the main event and phased out the old guard way sooner, it'd be a different story.

But they didn't, and since they didn't, not even Goldberg could've been enough. He was what he was. He was a short-term phenomenon that wasn't going to last long-term in any scenario. He didn't have the love for the business to improve in the ring, or character-wise.
TheGame414 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 10:36 PM   #14
ConanRulesNBC
Very good NBA starter
 
ConanRulesNBC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IL
Posts: 8,577
ConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this boardConanRulesNBC has one of the lowest reputations on this board
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Quote:
If "people" (you take a survey, or something? Who are these people) preferred technical wrestling so much, why wasn't Bret Hart as big of a draw as Hulk Hogan?

By people I mean mostly internet wrestling fans. When ever I go onto a pro wrestling forum most people on there usually crap all over any recent match that hasn't come from Ring of Honor. It doesn't matter that Hogan, The Rock, Austin, Goldberg were by far way more of a draw than guys like Bret Hart, Ricky Steamboat, etc. I've gotten into so many arguments over "work rate" and BS like that. I just enjoy the sports-entertainment side of the business more than the in ring work.

Quote:
As far as your dislike of technical wrestling and your hilariously stupid mischaracterization of it, if you'd rather watch the Undertaker plod around and throw punches than watch Kurt Angle put on an absolute performance, that's your problem.

When it comes to Kurt Angle... I am actually a huge fan of his. Just because I like the storylines/characters and that kind of stuff doesn't mean I don't like a good match. Kurt Angle vs. Brock Lesnar from WrestleMania 19 is one of my favorites. But Undertaker is one of my favorites and there's no way I'd choose a Kurt Angle match over his. Even though Angle is the much better athlete, Undertaker is the man.

Quote:
But I do believe the WWF was better off without Russo.

Then why did the product go downhill so much after he left? They remained popular in 2000 but when 2001 came the ratings started declining. And I'm not really saying that Vince Russo deserves ALL of the credit for the success of the Attitude Era. Of course he worked with guys who had lots of talent like Austin, DX, The Rock, Foley, Undertaker, Kane and others. But what I think Russo did was put these talented guys in entertaining situations. I always think of movies. You can have the most talented actors around but if the director doesn't know what he/she is doing and the plot sucks then the movie will more than likely be crap. That's what I feel like is going on in the WWE and even TNA right now. They have so much talent but have no idea how to use them.

Eric Bischoff, Vince Russo and Paul Heyman were the most creative minds in wrestling in the '90s and it's just ridiculous how they have little to no control over wrestling nowadays. Eric Bischoff with the nWo, Heyman with ECW, Vince Russo with the Attitude Era.

Quote:
If it wasn't for Steve Austin, and to a lesser extent DX, The Rock, and Foley, none of the silly-ass "WWF Attitude" BS would have ever mattered anyway.

What do you mean silly-ass BS? The Attitude Era was freaking great.

Quote:
The biggest problem that WCW had, obviously, was how many huge stars they had under their nose whose potential went unrealized while in that company

True... and that was almost all due to Eric Bischoff. He's the one who went after Hogan and then guys like Duggan, Savage, Brutus Beefcake came in and ran out talent like Austin, Vader, Mick Foley, etc.

The horrible booking of the nWo is what really hurt WCW. The ending of the Sting/Hogan Starrcade match was just brutal. WCW did such an amazing job of building up Sting vs. Hogan and they blew it with the "fast count" finish. Sting should have gone over cleanly and had a nice run with the belt. The nWo should have broken up and kicked out Hogan and rebuild... maybe with Bret Hart as the new leader.

Instead of doing that Sting held onto the title for only a few months where he had no major feud with anyone and instead of either getting rid of the nWo or rebuilding it in a different way (the Wolfpac was awesome) Eric Bischoff decided to create 4 different versions of the nWo. Fans just got sick of it.

Then WCW gets Goldberg who for a while was right up there with "Stone Cold" Steve Austin as one of the most popular guys in the business and WCW blew it with him too by having Kevin Nash win the title.

The whole point of this thread was just to say that people behind the scenes in wrestling get little credit. Especially in the WWF/E. Most fans probably assume that Vince McMahon is/was responsible for everything we saw in the WWF/E. But it's not true. During the Attitude Era, Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara wrote the shows.
ConanRulesNBC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2007, 01:17 AM   #15
TheGame414
Decent college freshman
 
TheGame414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Zookville
Posts: 2,785
TheGame414 has decent reputationTheGame414 has decent reputation
Default Re: Wrestling fans...

Quote:
By people I mean mostly internet wrestling fans. When ever I go onto a pro wrestling forum most people on there usually crap all over any recent match that hasn't come from Ring of Honor.
Yeah ,but diehard fans who follow things closely enough to post about them on the internet are going to always be like that, whether it's wrestling, movies or anything else. Internet geeks are internet geeks no matter the subject. A certain percentage of people are going to be elitist for no good reason.

F-ck 'em.

Quote:
I've gotten into so many arguments over "work rate" and BS like that.
A lot of people misunderstand what workrate really is. Some think it's the guy who does the most cool moves per match. It isn't. Having a good moveset and technical skills is certainly part of it, but a lot of people forget that "workrate" refers to working the crowd. Not jamming a bunch of moves into a match, whether they make sense or not. It's why whenever someone tells me that the RVD/Jerry Lynn matches in ECW were classics, I immediately know that they're wrestling-retarded and I don't need to waste my time talking to them about it anymore.

Workrate is about using your in-ring ability to tell a story, to build upon what you're doing, to construct a true performance. But don't confuse someone like Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, or the likes getting huge reactions as being a good worker; he isn't working the crowd. He just has a really popular character. That doesn't mean there aren't Undertaker matches I don't enjoy, I just know well enough that they aren't actually what you'd call a good match.

Quote:
I just enjoy the sports-entertainment side of the business more than the in ring work.
Fair enough. Personally, I like a smart, entertaining product, and that requires quality from both sides of the coin. That's why I say 2000 was the WWF's peak.

Quote:
Kurt Angle vs. Brock Lesnar from WrestleMania 19 is one of my favorites.
That's one of my 20 favorite matches ever because it was a WM main event and a legit 4-star match (maybe ****1/2, but not *****), but it was probably only their third-best match in WWE.

Quote:
Then why did the product go downhill so much after he left?
It didn't. Like I said, his departure probably isn't one of the main reasons things got so much better. Triple H not only became a legit main eventer- finally- in this time period, but also became the best heel since Ric Flair in 1989. Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero and others came into the picture, to upgrade the in-ring product to the best any wrestling company, arguably even including Japan, had had in over a decade. The Rock hit his absolute peak with one of the best 18-month stretches a face has ever had in wrestling, while Triple H was simultaneously having one of the best heel runs ever. Edge/Christian, the Hardys and the Dudleys elevated the tag division about as high as it's ever been.

Everyone remembers the late 90's because of Austin, the Montreal screwjob, and the cute "Attitude" nickname. But make no mistake, in terms of an all-around product, the WWF in 2000 was near-perfect.

Quote:
They remained popular in 2000 but when 2001 came the ratings started declining.
The ratings, despite no Austin, hit an all-time high in 2000. The reason they started to decline was quite simple: in September 2000 they left the USA Network for TNN, and at the time a lot of people still didn't get TNN. They were only reaching 85-90% of the audience they still had.

Quote:
Eric Bischoff, Vince Russo and Paul Heyman were the most creative minds in wrestling in the '90s and it's just ridiculous how they have little to no control over wrestling nowadays. Eric Bischoff with the nWo, Heyman with ECW, Vince Russo with the Attitude Era.
The nWo storyline was a near-carbon copy ripoff from Japan years earlier. Bischoff gets no credit for that from me. Russo showed how "creative" he really was when left to his own devices with no one to check him in WCW.

Nothing in wrestling is really new, anyway.

Quote:
What do you mean silly-ass BS? The Attitude Era was freaking great.
It was great because the Austin/McMahon storyline was the best storyline in wrestling history, and Austin at the time was the biggest star in wrestling history. It was great because of The Rock, because of DX.

In short, because there were talented performers.

But it wasn't as good as late '99 to mid-'01. Did you forget about all the idiotic stuff? Val Venis getting his schlong cut off? The Ministry? The Corporate Ministry? The Oddities? The Mean Street Posse? Owen Hart as the Blue Blazer?

There was a lot of INSANELY idiotic stuff in this time. And to boot, the in-ring product was mediocre. Austin didn't have a lot of great matches, despite his popularity, because of his neck. When he came back after his year-long layoff, he had a run of awesome matches that he hadn't had since 1996-1997. Rock hadn't yet come into his own in the ring, and neither had Triple H. Not to mention all of the megatalents that hadn't yet come into the WWF (Angle, Benoit, Jericho, and so on).

I'm telling you, the WWF's 2000 was the best year any wrestling company has ever had. Don't forget how incredible their product was at this time.

Quote:
True... and that was almost all due to Eric Bischoff. He's the one who went after Hogan and then guys like Duggan, Savage, Brutus Beefcake came in and ran out talent like Austin, Vader, Mick Foley, etc.
Bischoff was largely responsible. But don't forget that Ric Flair booked the shows in the early-mid 1990's and ran off Foley and Austin. Don't forget that Kevin Nash was the booker in the late 1990's, and booked himself into the main event, and the World Title, killing a Goldberg title run the fans were still eating up, and leading to an nWO reunion that the world didn't want to see. Nash basically handed the ratings lead back to the WWF for good, and whoever told Tony Schiovonne to give away Mick Foley's title win and add on the "that'll put butts in the seats" comment on Jan. 4, 1999, the same night as Hogan beating Nash with the finger push for the WCW title, shoveled the dirt on the grave.
TheGame414 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:25 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy