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Old 07-08-2007, 12:45 PM   #16
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

i'd take dominant center with average pg over a team with dominant pg with average big.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Your "inside presence" on offense and defense isn't going to come from your sg. Certain positions provide those skills, and the thread creator is just asking to rank those positions.

yeah, I know. But a go-to scorer can be any position. You can have a great rebounding SF. Perimeter defense can be PG, SG, SF. A playmaker usually is a PG, but can be a PF (Duncan, KG), SF (Bird, Pippen, heck, Antoine Walker). You can shooting from almost any position. PG, SG, SF is obvious, but guys like 'Shard, Dirk are great shooter that spread the floor as well. Larry Bird was a inside presence, a shooter, a rebounder and a playmaker at the same time.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:59 PM   #18
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

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Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
yeah, I know. But a go-to scorer can be any position. You can have a great rebounding SF. Perimeter defense can be PG, SG, SF. A playmaker usually is a PG, but can be a PF (Duncan, KG), SF (Bird, Pippen, heck, Antoine Walker). You can shooting from almost any position. PG, SG, SF is obvious, but guys like 'Shard, Dirk are great shooter that spread the floor as well. Larry Bird was a inside presence, a shooter, a rebounder and a playmaker at the same time.
There are a few guys that fill holes outside of their position's normal duties but most SFs aren't going to get you over 6rpg (there might be 5 in the league right now that do that), and on a side note, Rashard Lewis isn't a pf in height only (doesn't rebound and stinks at interior d). I will agree that go-to scorers can come from anywhere but most other roles are filled by a certain type of player (pfs and Cs rebound, Cs block shots, guards space the floor and distribute the ball, etc.). There are exceptions but bball has evolved into the pg, sg, sf, pf, c format for a reason.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
No one should be saying point guard. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, half of the top 10 players in NBA history, are centers. Look at all of the Dynasties in NBA history, only one didn't have a star center (Jordan's Bulls). And the greatest Dynasty of all (Russell's Celtics) was, of course, based around a center. A center, or at least a great big (Tim Duncan could easily be called a center) is the most important part of a Championship formula, without a doubt. Only Dynasty based on a pg is Magic's Lakers, and Johnson was a very versatile 6'9 player that could and at one point or another in his career did play every position (although he was mainly a point guard). People are taking the "Nash Era" (that's a joke, this is really the Tim Duncan era, although most analysts won't admit that) too seriously.



Great post!
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Positions are virtually meaningless. One team may have a certain type of player they play at a certain position, whereas another team may have another type of player with a completely different role at that same position.

With all that said, I completely agree with Real Men Wear Green. Dominant interior players are by far the most important to a teams success. The impact they have on the game is far greater than perimeter players. Therefore, like he said, nobody should be choosing perimeter players over big men.

Take offense, for example. The dominant interior player is able to get high percentage looks every time around the basket. The dominant perimeter play, no matter how good, is always forced to take outside shots, lower percentage, less efficient shots. And isn't it true that the more efficient team almost always wins? Why then would anyone choose a less efficient player to base an offense around? Jordan's the exception, not the rule.

On defense, the difference is even more clear. At best, the dominant perimeter player can lock down a single man. The dominant interior player, however, guards the basket, and with his shot blocking and shot altering abilities is able to singlehandedly limit the number of high percentage shots the opposing team takes.

Basically, the dominant interior player more positively benefits his teams efficiency, while more effective limiting the opposing teams, and that's not even taking into consideration rebounding. Throughout history, championships have been won almost entirely by teams led by dominant big men. I'd be interested to see a list of matchups in the finals of perimeter led teams vs interior led teams. I assure you, it'd be one sided.

Bigs are often underrated. Why? Simple, they're not as flashy and marketable. The media wants you to believe that guys like Wade, Kobe, and Lebron are the best players. It's sad how much ESPN underrates guys like Tim Duncan. Personally, I thinks it's just as exciting, if not moreso, watching a guy like Yao or Duncan go to work as one of todays overhyped perimeter stars.

Last edited by The Answer : 07-08-2007 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:45 PM   #21
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
yeah, I know. But a go-to scorer can be any position.

Yes, but it's obviously preferable for your go to scorer to be an interior player because interior players can consistently get high percentage looks, thus creating the most efficient team possible.
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:21 PM   #22
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

If you have a perimeter player like a Melo or Pierce that can be a back to the basket scorer then you don't need a great post scoring big man. I mean its good to have every position on your team needing to be guarded, so if you have a player like Melo and you have a big that can catch and finish or shoot the ball, then you're fine. So again, its not necessarily about positions. Its about needs like defense (you need interior and perimeter defense), shooting to spread the floor especially with the zone defense being legal, rebounding.
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Answer
Yes, but it's obviously preferable for your go to scorer to be an interior player because interior players can consistently get high percentage looks, thus creating the most efficient team possible.


still, the important thing is not to have a great scorer at C, but a great scorer at all.
there aren't a lot of those great scoring centers. Duncan, Yao, maybe Curry. And, if you like it or not, Kobe is a better go-to scorer than Duncan.
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: Most important positions for a team to address

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtTheDriveIn
1. Center
2. Point Guard
3. Power Forward
4. Shooting Guard
5. Small Forward

I don't know, I have no clue. That looks wrong.

The impact of Centers in the current NBA games has been largely reduced due to the rules of the league and the lack of excellent centers, therefore, the list ought to be looking like this:

1. Power Forward
2. Point Guard
3. Shooting Guard
4. Center
5. Small Forward
6. Sunstitute
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Gezee
If you have a perimeter player like a Melo or Pierce that can be a back to the basket scorer then you don't need a great post scoring big man. I mean its good to have every position on your team needing to be guarded, so if you have a player like Melo and you have a big that can catch and finish or shoot the ball, then you're fine. So again, its not necessarily about positions. Its about needs like defense (you need interior and perimeter defense), shooting to spread the floor especially with the zone defense being legal, rebounding.
Paul Pierce himself would probably disagree with you. Both Pierce and Anthony are better described as being good "back to the basket scorers" for small forwards. Neither is going to be the serious threat that guys like Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon, etc. are/were. Neither guy has seen the second round of the playoffs in the last three years. But both would be Champions several times over if they got to play on the Spurs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
The impact of Centers in the current NBA games has been largely reduced due to the rules of the league and the lack of excellent centers, therefore, the list ought to be looking like this:

1. Power Forward
2. Point Guard
3. Shooting Guard
4. Center
5. Small Forward
6. Sunstitute
Spurs, Heat, Spurs, Pistons, Spurs, Lakers, Lakers, Lakers, Spurs. The only one of these Championship teams whose best player didn't play Center was the Heat, and even there Shaq's presence was important throughout the season and most of the playoffs (I will concede he didn't do much in the Finals). Billups and Parker won Finals MVP awards but for the Pistons, Ben Wallace, as the defensive leader, was the true team MVP and anyone that understands basketball can tell that Tim Duncan is more important than Tony Parker to the Spurs team success. The last team to win a championship with a pg as it's best player is Isaiah Thomas's Pistons, well over a decade go.
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

1. C
2. PG
3. PF
4. SF
5. SG

Obviously it depends on how good the player is at each position, but as far as being in a position to influence the game the most it goes in that order. The center should be the most important guy on both ends. PG should facilitate the offense and lead the defense. Other 3 are interchangable really. The obsession with having a 7' center has meant a lot of guys nowadays play PF that would have been C's in the past and the de-emphasizing of defense by the league has made the center position less valuable than it previously was, but it is still tops.
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:14 AM   #27
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Paul Pierce himself would probably disagree with you. Both Pierce and Anthony are better described as being good "back to the basket scorers" for small forwards. Neither is going to be the serious threat that guys like Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon, etc. are/were. Neither guy has seen the second round of the playoffs in the last three years. But both would be Champions several times over if they got to play on the Spurs.

Spurs, Heat, Spurs, Pistons, Spurs, Lakers, Lakers, Lakers, Spurs. The only one of these Championship teams whose best player didn't play Center was the Heat, and even there Shaq's presence was important throughout the season and most of the playoffs (I will concede he didn't do much in the Finals). Billups and Parker won Finals MVP awards but for the Pistons, Ben Wallace, as the defensive leader, was the true team MVP and anyone that understands basketball can tell that Tim Duncan is more important than Tony Parker to the Spurs team success. The last team to win a championship with a pg as it's best player is Isaiah Thomas's Pistons, well over a decade go.

Wait a sec, I don't think in Pistons the best player was the center Ben Wallace, and the best player in Spurs is a Power Forward, right?
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:44 AM   #28
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Paul Pierce himself would probably disagree with you. Both Pierce and Anthony are better described as being good "back to the basket scorers" for small forwards. Neither is going to be the serious threat that guys like Duncan, Shaq, Olajuwon, etc. are/were. Neither guy has seen the second round of the playoffs in the last three years. But both would be Champions several times over if they got to play on the Spurs.

.


Carmelo is more than just a good post player for a sf. He's arguably top 5 in post play period. I think Allen is going to get a lot of open opportunities from Pierce's and Als post play, and Pierce can draw a double inside.

And to my point, those guys haven't been terribly successful because those guys haven't had those other ingredients said to be necessary. Right now I'd say Melo is definately missing the floor spacing (extremely important) and they could use help on perimeter D also (though they did improve as an overall good defensive unit). Pierce is missing the interior D, probably the rebounding and perimeter D too, but definately interior D.

Still as long as those guys are effective in scoring from the post and able to draw a lot of attention (ie doubles) then they are relatively as effective for their offense as a Duncan, simply don't have the teammates to take advantage (like Melo and the Nugz inefficient 3pt shooting) or Pierce and a lot.

Now while they can provide the interior presence, they don't provide the rebounding or defense of a Duncan. But there is only a small handful of bigs that can provide everything of a Duncan or Shaq and they still do it better.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:03 AM   #29
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Based on the simulation leagues that I am part of this is the best winning combination.

1. Dominant bigman
2. Dominant bigman
3. Defensive minded pass first PG
4. Defensive minded SF/SG
5. Average swingman


Put all of those in one team and you have a championship
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Most important positions in order for team success

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Wait a sec, I don't think in Pistons the best player was the center Ben Wallace, and the best player in Spurs is a Power Forward, right?
1: I do think that Detroit's MVP was Wallace. That team was all about defense, and Wallace was the foundation of that.

2. Tim Duncan is a PF/C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Gezee
Carmelo is more than just a good post player for a sf. He's arguably top 5 in post play period. I think Allen is going to get a lot of open opportunities from Pierce's and Als post play, and Pierce can draw a double inside.

And to my point, those guys haven't been terribly successful because those guys haven't had those other ingredients said to be necessary. Right now I'd say Melo is definately missing the floor spacing (extremely important) and they could use help on perimeter D also (though they did improve as an overall good defensive unit). Pierce is missing the interior D, probably the rebounding and perimeter D too, but definately interior D.

Still as long as those guys are effective in scoring from the post and able to draw a lot of attention (ie doubles) then they are relatively as effective for their offense as a Duncan, simply don't have the teammates to take advantage (like Melo and the Nugz inefficient 3pt shooting) or Pierce and a lot.

Now while they can provide the interior presence, they don't provide the rebounding or defense of a Duncan. But there is only a small handful of bigs that can provide everything of a Duncan or Shaq and they still do it better.
Pierce and Anthony can light up most sfs and sgs down low but ibut don't get that confused with them being true post players. Guys like Tim Duncan, Shaq (well, sometimes, he's on the decline) and the truly great post scorers canm often score even on doubles. But if Pierce or Anthony runs into a big like Jermaine O'Neal the only thing they can do is pass. Playing with better shooters would help but Pierce just had Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak, and Gerald Green, so it's not like there's been no shooting. As for Anthony. the bigs in Denver can rebound and defend and JR Smith is an ok shooter. Not to mention that Allen Iverson guy that might even be better than him overall. So it's not like the guy is out there with no help.
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