Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > Off the Court Lounge

Off the Court Lounge Basketball fans talk about everything EXCEPT basketball here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-12-2007, 04:48 PM   #31
-primetime-
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
Since it doesn't deserve its own thread, here's my top 10 TE's of all-time. I'm not going to bother putting them into any order, either:

Shannon Sharpe
Ozzie Newsome
Tony Gonzalez
Kellen Winslow
Jackie Smith
Mike Ditka
Todd Christensen
John Mackey
Steve Jordan
Dave Casper

Hon. mentions:

Ben Coates
Keith Jackson
Jerry Smith
Brent Jones
Antonio Gates (with some speculation)

Jay Novacek
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2007, 06:03 PM   #32
Los Angeles
A Diamond In the Rough
 
Los Angeles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,293
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
As for Irvin, yes, I forgot to put him as an honorable mention.

Are you serious?

Quote:
Yes, I'm a Redskins fan.

Then put your biased away when making these kind of lists...I hate Dallas, but I recognize how terrific of a receiver Irvin was.

Quote:
He doesn't have the career numbers.

Who cares, his impact on the football field made up for everything. He won superbowls, he made plays in the 4th, he could block, he had great hands, he was physical...he earned his yards, he simply made plays. He was arguably the most physical receiver to ever play, he made Keyshawn Johnson look like a little girl.

Quote:
Yeah, I've heard a bunch of Cowboys players talk about how Irvin was the one who made the team go.

No he wasn't the best player on Dallas, even if he was the 3rd best player on that team which is arguable...he should still be in your top 10 at the WR position.

Quote:
Plus, I'm a Redskins fan...

That's all you really had to say in that paragraph.

Quote:
Carter's at #2 because he's an 8-time PB'er, he's #2 in career receptions, 4th in receiving yards, and 2nd in receiving TDs.

He had a 59 yards per game in his career, he has the longevity and the best hands in football...but he's highly overrated. He made the most silly catches in football, but as an overall package...he did not block as well as other receivers, or had amazing yards per catch...I mean James Lofton had more yards then him while having 400 less catches? What makes him better then someone like Marvin Harrison? Marvin has another 3-4 years in front of him and needs just one more good season to surpass Carter in every statistical category.

I didn't put Emmith Smith at #1 for the same reason you should not put Cris as high as you did, they did not impact the game in the same dominant manner as their counter parts. He has the numbers sure, but that's because he played so many more games...and yes, longevity and consistency counts for a lot, but it's not enough for me to put him over guys like Alworth, Lofton and Irvin...they were all around better receivers/athletes.
Los Angeles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2007, 07:11 PM   #33
-primetime-
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Los Angeles
Who cares, his impact on the football field made up for everything. He won superbowls, he made plays in the 4th, he could block, he had great hands, he was physical...he earned his yards, he simply made plays. He was arguably the most physical receiver to ever play, he made Keyshawn Johnson look like a little girl.
this is so true....and thank you for saying it.

Irvin is top 10, I don't care what his numbers say.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2007, 07:42 PM   #34
-primetime-
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

let me also add that Michael Irvin is the only reason that San Fran hired Deion Sanders...and they would have never gotten past Dallas without him.

and thus Jerry knew he had to do what ever it took to get Deion for himself...

Deion is the only reason that Dallas didn't 4-peat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2007, 09:28 PM   #35
Jackass18
The Iron Price
 
Jackass18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Carcosa
Posts: 14,009
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
I hate Dallas, but I recognize how terrific of a receiver Irvin was.

Good for you.

Quote:
Who cares, his impact on the football field made up for everything. He won superbowls, he made plays in the 4th, he could block, he had great hands, he was physical...he earned his yards, he simply made plays. He was arguably the most physical receiver to ever play

And, he also had a lot of talent around him. OL, QB, RB, TE, and a really good defense. Their defense was pretty much top 10 every year.

Quote:
he has the longevity and the best hands in football...but he's highly overrated. He made the most silly catches in football, but as an overall package...he did not block as well as other receivers, or had amazing yards per catch...

He made a lot of sideline catches, but who cares if they weren't 50 yard plays or even 15 yard plays? He made a lot of hard catches that were only like 7 or 8 yarders. I see you prefer the more flashy home run hitter type WR, but I don't necessarily. Let's see those guys make the tough catch over the middle, let's see those guys go up high for a catch leaving their bodies exposed time after time, let's see those guys make those diving catches near the sidelines that only net about 7 yards.

Quote:
I mean James Lofton had more yards then him while having 400 less catches?

And, Warfield averaged over 20 yards a catch, but you don't think he should be in the top 10.

Quote:
What makes him better then someone like Marvin Harrison? Marvin has another 3-4 years in front of him and needs just one more good season to surpass Carter in every statistical category.

And, Harrison will move up.

Quote:
He has the numbers sure, but that's because he played so many more games...and yes, longevity and consistency counts for a lot, but it's not enough for me to put him over guys like Alworth, Lofton and Irvin...they were all around better receivers/athletes.

Irvin only scored more than 9 TDs in a season once while Carter did it 6 times. Carter didn't have the benefit of having an awesome OL, one of the most accurate QBs ever, and a topnotch RB to take some pressure off of the passing game like Irvin did.
Jackass18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2007, 09:54 PM   #36
Los Angeles
A Diamond In the Rough
 
Los Angeles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,293
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
And, he also had a lot of talent around him. OL, QB, RB, TE, and a really good defense. Their defense was pretty much top 10 every year.

That's my point, if you watched him play you would realize he didn't need all that to be a great receiver. You talk about Carter making sideline catches, do you even realize how many incredible double coverage receptions Irvin made in his career? If you think Steve Smith is fantastic at beating double coverage today, Irvin was even better. Corners feared the man, because of his physicality and his demeanor to simply make plays. I can't understand how he doesn't make the top 10, you're either completely biased or simply haven't watched enough of his films.

Quote:
He made a lot of sideline catches, but who cares if they weren't 50 yard plays or even 15 yard plays? He made a lot of hard catches that were only like 7 or 8 yarders.

He was a terrific possession receiver, but would you not rather have a receiver who can do a little of both? I never recall Cris Carter being a terrific deep threat...he's a better version of Keyshawn Johnson. His speed didn't really hurt teams but he made up for it with his hands...that's why guys like Lofton have more yards then him while having a lot less receptions. Those receivers were ultimate playmakers, you act like those guys couldn't make a sideline play or didn't have great hands, please who are you kidding?

By your logic Andre Johnson is a top 3 receiver in football because he led the league in receptions this past season. Lofton had more yards in less games and 400 less receptions...obviously he made more things happen on the football field. You act like gaining extra 5 yards a catch is something minor to consider, that's a big difference and should obviously be considered. Carter was a liability on 3rd and long...he was a liability late in the 4th because he couldn't accelerate the way those receivers could, and beat his man down the field. Those are huge factors, plus the simple fact that those guy are simply better athletes...they were versatile at that position, more so then Cris Carter, period.

Quote:
And, Warfield averaged over 20 yards a catch, but you don't think he should be in the top 10.

Not over a guy like Randy Moss he shouldn't...who did not make your top 10 list, and neither did Irvin.

Moss: 676 receptions, 10700 yards, 78 YPG, 101 touchdowns
Warfield: 427 receptions, 8565 yards, 55 YPG, 85 touchdowns

I rest my case.



Quote:
Irvin only scored more than 9 TDs in a season once while Carter did it 6 times. Carter didn't have the benefit of having an awesome OL

That's just it, Dallas had a great OL, they utilized their running game more then any other team in football. In the zone, they tend to give it to Emmith Smith, Irvin would have been a lot more effective if he had played with a pass first offense. For his career the man average 75 yards a game, considering that Dallas had a RB who had more rushing yards then any other RB in league history, that 75 is very impressive...considering Cris Carter's career YPG is only 59.

Last edited by Los Angeles : 07-12-2007 at 09:57 PM.
Los Angeles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2007, 11:45 PM   #37
dgbigballer9329
Great young streetballer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 583
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
let me also add that Michael Irvin is the only reason that San Fran hired Deion Sanders...and they would have never gotten past Dallas without him.

Just for the record, Irvin just ate up Deion that year. I doubt anyone's had more success vs. Deion than Irvin, Rice included. San Fran won that year because.......it was just their year.
dgbigballer9329 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2007, 01:13 AM   #38
beau_boy04
Local High School Star
 
beau_boy04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,287
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

2 words! Jerry Rice!

and only man capable to stop him was Deion Sanders.

You heard me!
beau_boy04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2007, 01:19 AM   #39
Jackass18
The Iron Price
 
Jackass18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Carcosa
Posts: 14,009
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
That's my point, if you watched him play you would realize he didn't need all that to be a great receiver. You talk about Carter making sideline catches, do you even realize how many incredible double coverage receptions Irvin made in his career? If you think Steve Smith is fantastic at beating double coverage today, Irvin was even better. Corners feared the man, because of his physicality and his demeanor to simply make plays. I can't understand how he doesn't make the top 10, you're either completely biased or simply haven't watched enough of his films.

No, no, no. Just becuase I don't agree with your jock riding of Irvin does not mean I'm biased or didn't watch enough of him. I simply don't share your opinion of him. I know, "you don't have Paul Warfield in your top 10 because you're either biased or simply haven't watched enough of his films"... That's not really saying anything. Why don't career numbers count for Irvin? That was your argument for Sanders over Dickerson, so why are you abandoning that now? OK, I agree, that it's not all about just the numbers. I'm just not as awestruck as your are with flashy WRs.

Quote:
Those receivers were ultimate playmakers, you act like those guys couldn't make a sideline play or didn't have great hands, please who are you kidding?


Who are you kidding? What's with this "ultimate playmaker" bullsh!t? The ultimate play is a friggin' TD. Carter had 130, Lofton had 75, Irvin had 65. Carter outproduced them and by a good amount. Like I said, it's obvious that you prefer the flashy, speedy WR-type. I like the sure-handed, reliable guy who makes catches all over the field.

Quote:
By your logic Andre Johnson is a top 3 receiver in football because he led the league in receptions this past season.

Where did I say it's all about receptions?

Quote:
Moss: 676 receptions, 10700 yards, 78 YPG, 101 touchdowns
Warfield: 427 receptions, 8565 yards, 55 YPG, 85 touchdowns

I rest my case.

Wow, let's compare 2 guys from different eras and act like a)it's a fair comparison and b)it's case closed! Why not consider Warfield's blocking ability, as well? Anyway, let me try:

Moss: 5 PBs, no HOF, 15.8 ypc
Warfield: 8 PBs, HOF, 20.1 ypc ("You act like gaining extra 5 yards a catch is something minor to consider")

Case closed!

Last edited by Jackass18 : 07-13-2007 at 01:21 AM.
Jackass18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 04:19 PM   #40
Los Angeles
A Diamond In the Rough
 
Los Angeles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,293
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
Just becuase I don't agree with your jock riding of Irvin does not mean I'm biased or didn't watch enough of him.

If it's between being biased and jock riding someone, I think not put Michael Irvin in the top 10 list, is a little off then claiming he is a top 10 All-Time receiver. I'm pretty sure anyone that made a top 10 list on this site have put his name in the list.

Quote:
The ultimate play is a friggin' TD. Carter had 130, Lofton had 75, Irvin had 65. Carter outproduced them and by a good amount.

Arrogant comment, you don't consider the type of teams these players played with...name me a great RB Carter played with? Not only did Irvin had more impact on a game by game basis because he had roughly 15 more yards every game for his team (while playing for a run first offense). And why are you bringing Lofton who played less games, and had more yards? You act I'm high on "play makers" or "flashy" receivers...well wouldn't you think a RB who took 100 less carries and gained more yards for your team, to be the better player? I'm ignoring what kind of receivers they were and I'm simply looking at their impact...and yes a great play maker is obviously better then a great possession receiver, especially since Irvin and Lofton were so versatile, while Carter lacked the speed to be a great play maker. Sure Carter had more receptions and touchdowns, but he played under a pass first system...he was the ultimate possession receiver, Lofton & Irvin were a little of both...I recognize a great possession receiver (Marvin Harrison)...and I realize how terrific of a route runner Carter was in his days, but you fail to consider the impact each receiver had on a game to game basis...if you think Carter is better then both of them because he had more receptions and touchdowns, that's fine...it's your opinion, but I fail to understand how Irvin doesn't make the list.

Quote:
Where did I say it's all about receptions?

I gave you an example of a receiver who had more receptions then anyone in the league but had a low AVG...and he probably wouldn't make the top 10 list of current receivers. Even though he knows his route and has good hands...you need to look at their impact on a game to game basis. Carter played a lot more games then Irvin has, so why are you comparing their numbers when you should be comparing their impact on their respective teams...and I bet you anything Irvin would have had at least 15 more touchdowns in his much shorter career if Emmith Smith wasn't on the team. You talk about Aikman, but it works the other way as well...I think Irvin helped Aikman become a HOF QB.

Quote:
Case closed!

Why are you bringing pro-bowls and hall of fame into this discussion...when Moss's career isn't even over with?

2nd off, Moss has 16 more touchdowns and 23 more yards a game...that's the big number, many receivers have a great AVG but you also have to look at how many yards they racked up each game...Warfield is arguably the best home run hitter in football history but his impact did not match that of Randy Moss, who as I previously stated not only has more receptions and yards and touchdowns...but also has the game to game numbers. (Which to me is a huge factor, because it breaks it down and put it in perspective of how long they played the game and how well they played the game)

And yes longevity counts for a lot, which I guess is why you didn't include Irvin? But you included Warfield so your entire argument makes no sense to me, because Warfield doesn't have the numbers OR impact that Irvin had, and yet he made the list and Michael didn't.

Last edited by Los Angeles : 07-14-2007 at 04:23 PM.
Los Angeles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 04:36 PM   #41
-primetime-
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgbigballer9329
Just for the record, Irvin just ate up Deion that year. I doubt anyone's had more success vs. Deion than Irvin, Rice included. San Fran won that year because.......it was just their year.
I can't find the numbers of that game...

do have any links to back this up?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 02:51 AM   #42
Jackass18
The Iron Price
 
Jackass18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Carcosa
Posts: 14,009
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
I'm pretty sure anyone that made a top 10 list on this site have put his name in the list.

How many on this site have even heard of Paul Warfield? How many saw him play? Most, if not all grew up watching Irvin and probably don't know a whole lot about someone like Warfield.

Quote:
name me a great RB Carter played with?

Robert Smith and Terry Allen.

Quote:
You act I'm high on "play makers" or "flashy" receivers...well wouldn't you think a RB who took 100 less carries and gained more yards for your team, to be the better player?

Not necessarily because there are plenty of other factors to consider, as well.

Quote:
especially since Irvin and Lofton were so versatile, while Carter lacked the speed to be a great play maker.

What a total load of sh!t. Carter made a lot of plays; a lot more plays than both of them did in their careers.

Quote:
Sure Carter had more receptions and touchdowns, but he played under a pass first system...

It's not Carter's fault that the Cowboys would rather give the ball to Emmitt to score than to throw a TD pass to Irvin. What about '97? The Cowboys threw more passes than the Vikes, but Carter still had more receptions and TDs than Irvin. What about the '98 Vikings team? They had 17 rushing TDs, and Moss also had 17 receiving TDs, but Carter still had 12 TDs that season, which is 2 more TDs than Irvin had in any of his seasons.

Quote:
Carter played a lot more games then Irvin has, so why are you comparing their numbers when you should be comparing their impact on their respective teams..

How about this - The '96 Cowboys went 10-6 while Irvin only scored 2 TDs. The '97 Cowboys went 6-10 while Irvin scored 9 TDs. The '98 Cowboys went 10-6 while Irvin only had 1 TD. Did Alvin Harper have a bigger impact on the '93 Cowboys and a much, much bigger impact on the
94 Cowboys?

Quote:
And yes longevity counts for a lot, which I guess is why you didn't include Irvin? But you included Warfield so your entire argument makes no sense to me, because Warfield doesn't have the numbers OR impact that Irvin had, and yet he made the list and Michael didn't.

He played in a different era... Here's some blurbs from his HOF page:

"Paul Warfield is recognized as one of the premier wide receivers ever to have played in the National Football League. While his career totals for numbers of catches may not seem in line with those accumulated by other great receivers, as any student of the game understands, the truth isn�t always in the numbers."

"Even though he played on ball-control teams through most of his career, he managed to haul in 427 passes for 8,565 yards and 85 touchdowns."

"Because of his blazing speed, elusive moves, and great leaping ability, defenses often found it necessary to double cover him."

My list was just a rough estimate of where I'd put them. I didn't really care to put them in order, but I did it anyway. It's too hard to rank the players especially players from different eras. Is it really that hard to see why someone would keep Irvin out of the top 10? You act like "impact on the game" is something that's very easy to quantify, but it's not. It's not at all.
Jackass18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 01:05 PM   #43
dgbigballer9329
Great young streetballer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 583
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
I can't find the numbers of that game...

do have any links to back this up?

http://www.answers.com/topic/michael-irvin

Quote:
In 1992 and 1993, Irvin was a key player on the Cowboys' Super Bowl teams. In 1994, he enjoyed another stellar campaign with his fourth consecutive Pro Bowl season, but that year the Cowboys lost to the San Francisco 49ers in the NFC Championship Game. For his part, however, Irvin had one of the most productive games in NFL playoff history, with 12 catches for an NFC championship record 192 yards and two touchdowns.
dgbigballer9329 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 01:32 PM   #44
dgbigballer9329
Great young streetballer
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 583
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
Hmm, it seems people more prefer the flashy home run hitter type over the consistent possession type WR. I prefer Art Monk over Gary Clark. Monk was a 14-year Redskin while Clark only played 8 years with the Skins. Monk has 3 SB rings while Clark only has 2, and Monk has better career numbers.

Now this is where having seen those teams my whole life comes into play. Gary Clark was in no way, shape or form just a flashy home run hitter. He was a GREAT possession receiver with no fear going over the middle (the lasting image of him is going over the middle, getting hit, mouthpiece falling out, getting up and screaming), absolutely as tough as they came, an excellent blocker despite his frame AND a home run hitter. Gary Clark was as complete a wide receiver as just about anybody in his day. Any way you look at it, he was more complete than Art.

Monk was not as much a possession receiver as discussed, and I'll give him that. He could get deep, too. Not as well as Gary.

That's why I can't use career numbers when guaging the two of those. Looking at it historically, Monks career #s pretty much sh*t on Clarks. But I know what I saw. Art Monk was not as good as Clark was from the mid-80s to early 90s.

Quote:
My list was just a rough estimate of where I'd put them. I didn't really care to put them in order, but I did it anyway. It's too hard to rank the players especially players from different eras. Is it really that hard to see why someone would keep Irvin out of the top 10? You act like "impact on the game" is something that's very easy to quantify, but it's not. It's not at all.

Yep, and not only different eras. Different teams, different circumstances. A wide receiver in a run-first offense should get love even if he doesn't have the same numbers as a receiver that plays in the run and shoot. John Stallworth and Lynn Swann were both considered premier receivers in the NFL despite fairly pedestrian numbers. Muhsin Muhammad didn't just get so much worse over one year that he could go from 1400 yds and 16 tds (all Carolina's starting backs were hurt that year) to 700 yds and 5 tds with Chicago's run-first offense.

Circumstances often dictate stats and opportunities, and that's why you have to sometimes "guess" when comparing guys.
dgbigballer9329 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 05:28 PM   #45
-primetime-
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Top 10 NFL WRs of all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgbigballer9329
well then....I guess Irvin did torch Deion

he is top ten....no question
  Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:09 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy