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Old 07-17-2007, 04:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
His sheer presence on the game itself at the point guard position was extremely large.

and yet, somehow he only played in 1 finals in his prime (where he underperfomed) and was part of one of the largest choke jobs in NBA history.

Compare to Reed, who was in 2 finals, played bigger in both, and was the anchor -offensively and defensively -in both.

Quote:
His career accolades and accomplishments also solidify his spot as a top player. Gary Payton is an NBA Champion, 9-time NBA All-Star, 9-Time All-NBA, 9-Time All-Defensive Team, 2-Time Gold Medal Winner and NBA All-Rookie Team player.

none of which equal NBA MVP, 2 time finals MVP, all-star game MVP, ROY (as a 2nd round draft choice)

Sorry - too early for Payton.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:06 PM   #17
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Elvin Hayes
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
and yet, somehow he only played in 1 finals in his prime (where he underperfomed) and was part of one of the largest choke jobs in NBA history.

Compare to Reed, who was in 2 finals, played bigger in both, and was the anchor -offensively and defensively -in both.
Having a large impact on the game doesn't mean you need to get to the Finals as much as the next guy.
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Sorry - too early for Payton.
Not at all.

So he doesn't have an MVP or two Finals' MVPs. Doesn't mean he isn't worthy of being in the 20's.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Ewing. All time Knicks leading scorer, rebounds, blocks, etc...
Some argue Ewing being overrated but to me during the years he's being with the Knicks, we had such a great playoff series every year. He was not only the only Knick offense, he was the anchor on the defense too. For a guy to carry a team with no second star and give the Bulls a tough series every year, he might not be overrated after all.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Nice post Richie, its good that there are more GP supporters...

I vote for Gary Payton too



Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
and yet, somehow he only played in 1 finals in his prime (where he underperfomed) and was part of one of the largest choke jobs in NBA history.

Compare to Reed, who was in 2 finals, played bigger in both, and was the anchor -offensively and defensively -in both.



none of which equal NBA MVP, 2 time finals MVP, all-star game MVP, ROY (as a 2nd round draft choice)
.


What are you talking about? He underperformed? How did he underperform...all he did was outplay the GOAT Michael Jordan Head to Head.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Having a large impact on the game doesn't mean you need to get to the Finals as much as the next guy..


ok - but the fact that his "large impact" didn't bring him to the finals and didn't carry his team to a title - where other players "large impact" was obviously larger, should get the other player onm first...i.e. Reed > Payton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
So he doesn't have an MVP or two Finals' MVPs. Doesn't mean he isn't worthy of being in the 20's.

No, just means he shouldn't be on ahead of Reed.

For their careers, Reed, outscored, outrebounded, and out-accomplished Payton. Payton has more assists but compare Pay's 6.8 apg > Reeds 1.8 apg to reed's 12 rpg > Pay's 3 rpg.

Reed was just better.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:16 PM   #22
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starks
ok - but the fact that his "large impact" didn't bring him to the finals and didn't carry his team to a title - where other players "large impact" was obviously larger, should get the other player onm first...i.e. Reed > Payton.



No, just means he shouldn't be on ahead of Reed.

For their careers, Reed, outscored, outrebounded, and out-accomplished Payton. Payton has more assists but compare Pay's 6.8 apg > Reeds 1.8 apg to reed's 12 rpg > Pay's 3 rpg.

Reed was just better.

Wow. Career averages? Reed retired at age 32. Gary Payton was an all-star at age 32. Payton had way many more years out of his prime bringing his career averages down.

In their "PEAKS" or even when they were good or all-star caliber

Gary Payton put more ppg, more apg, and a higher rpg than he has on his career averages.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Shawn Bradley
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quick Look on both of their best 10 years:


Gary Payton (1994-2003)


20.9ppg
7.8apg
4.5rpg

Willis Reed (1965-1974)


18.7ppg
12.9rpg (In what Era again?)
1.8apg




And just a quick comparison of Reed's rebounds and Payton's assists, Reed finished Top 5 in the league in rebounds twice, Payton was Top 5 in assists 5 times.

It appears to me that Payton was the better scorer, and his assist numbers are higher valued than Reed's rebounds.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
ok - but the fact that his "large impact" didn't bring him to the finals and didn't carry his team to a title - where other players "large impact" was obviously larger, should get the other player onm first...i.e. Reed > Payton.
Again, Payton's impact on the game was massive. You couldn't just treat him like another everyday point guard. He had a huge factor on the game itself. As big as Reed's? Well that's not really fair to say - Reed was a big man.
Quote:
For their careers, Reed, outscored,
It wasn't really mandatory for Payton to score. He was a point guard, and playmaking was one of the biggest parts of his game. Plus, Redd outscored him by about 2PPG over a career basis. Payton played, what, 16 or so years? Of course his overall numbers will go down because he was averaging garbage when he got older. Reed played around 10 years - easier to keep a scoring trend going on for 10 years rather than around 16. I wonder what woul dhave happened to his career numbers if he played as many years as Payton? Probably wouldn't be as good as they are.

Payton's highest scoring average: 23.1PPG
Reed's highest scoring average: 21.7PPG

Payton's career scoring average: 16.3PPG
Reed's career scoring average: 18.7PPG

Payton's career scoring average per 40 minutes: 18.5PPG
Reed's career scoring average per 40 minutes: 18.7PPG

Payton's TS%: .528
Reed's TS%: .523

Payton's eFG%: .496
Reed's eFG%: .476

Payton's FG%: .466
Reed's FG%: .476

Though Reed outscored Payton for the most part, by a hair, Payton, for the most part, was more efficient. So saying he outscored Payton really isn't very worthy of discussion. I'm sure it would be different if Payton didn't have those poor years near the end of his career where his numbers dropped.
Quote:
outrebounded,
Reed is a forward/center, Payton is a guard. No real argument there.
Quote:
Payton has more assists but compare Pay's 6.8 apg > Reeds 1.8 apg to reed's 12 rpg > Pay's 3 rpg.
Come on man. We both know averaging 12RPG is a hell of a lot easier than averaging 12APG.

We both have different opinions, and both of our facts are worthy arguing. You think Reed, I think Payton. Neither one of us are really truely wrong here. Just different perspectives is all.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:30 PM   #26
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

The Big E, Elvin Hayes.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:30 PM   #27
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

walt frazier.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:31 PM   #28
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

With as much weight people are putting on accomplishments id be suprised if Payton made it over Walt Frazier who was basically 70s Gary plus 3 finals,2 titles, and a finals MVP. When its all over Kidd may be more deserving of high ranking than Gary too unless people want to give a whole lot of props for a title as 5th or 6th bestplayer. All these MVPs have gone unpicked so far:

Reed(2 titles)
Cowens(2 titles)
Unseld(1 title)
Walton(1 title)
Mcadoo(couple as a laker but none in his prime)
AI(finals and 4 scoring titles)
KG
Nash

And a case could be made that none were better than Elvin Hayes who is the 6th all time leading scorer, 4th all time leading rebounder, 12(straight) time all star, champ who made 3 finals, led the league in scoring and rebounding, and made several all nba and all d teams and won ROY. He was a 28/17 player in his prime and one of the few players to prove himself great in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. He was an all star with Wilt and Russell(1969) and an all star with Bird and Magic(1980). Many say his reverse pivot jumper was the second most unstoppable move in history behind Kareems sky hook. And speaking of Kareem it was Hayes(who averaged 37 and 19 his senior year) who broke Kareems near 50 game NCAA win streak when he gave UCLA 39/15 as Kareem had one of his worst games.

If Elvin Hayes doesnt get serious votes by now guys like Payton, Kidd, Maravich, AI, Drexler, and even Pippen probably shouldnt be getting many either.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:33 PM   #29
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
With as much weight people are putting on accomplishments id be suprised if Payton made it over Walt Frazier who was basically 70s Gary plus 3 finals,2 titles, and a finals MVP.


Thats where your wrong. Frazier never won a Finals MVP. Reed won it both times. Try again
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Payton should be top 10

Kilborn even says so in PTI. Look at the clip. 50 seconds mark is when it gets interesting.
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