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Old 07-17-2007, 04:39 PM   #31
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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(my post from the #25 vote)

barry is almost certainly the right answer here, but i'm going to take ewing. his team represented the largest challenge to the dominant dynasties in the 90s and never had another true star (starks was a great effort player who worked himself into all-star status, but he just wasn't graced with superstar talent, and neither was oakley though he was a superb role player).

his numbers were never overwhelming but he was the offensive focal point (meaning most of his teammates relied on him to help make it easier to score either by occupying backline defense - like duncan, setting the screen and drawing both defenders in fear of a pop out shot - like dirk, or going into the post and drawing a double for the kick out - like shaq) and the defensive anchor to a team that would likely have made the finals three years in a row if it hadn't run head on into a great bulls dynasty with jordan in his prime.

shaq credits ewing with being one of the only centers he ever played against who he couldn't psyche out or beat up and who always competed until he was just too old. patrick is ridiculed for coming up short in the clutch, but he had a tremendous game 7 against indiana to get to the finals in 94 and actually hit some very clutch free throws to ice the game and beat indi to advance to the finals in 99.

if pat's rebounding numbers look a little light, consider that he played next oakley, a player with a 9.5 career rebound average, for the majority of his career. if he didn't score that many points, consider that he played in a controlled, slow tempo offense. if he never won it all, consider the level of competition he faced and the ability of the teammates he played beside (not to run down that team who were very tough and played together but there wasn't anyone remotely wade / bryant / penny / pippen / mchale level out there with him). and of course, all of that being said, he is still the all time leading knick in total points, total boards, and total blocks (i'm guessing here, but i'm pretty sure). willis reed once called patrick ewing the greatest knick of all time. i share that opinion, though it's debatable.

pat
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:39 PM   #32
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Again, Payton's impact on the game was massive. You couldn't just treat him like another everyday point guard. He had a huge factor on the game itself. As big as Reed's? Well that's not really fair to say - Reed was a big man. .

That's true - you could not. Reed's impact was greater. The MVP vote and titles prove that. Of everyone in the league, the voters decided that Reed was the best -- and its not like Payton was trapped on bad teams his whole career, he mostly played on good teams. Reed playedi n an era with Jabbar and Chamb and West and Baylor His impact was larger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
It wasn't really mandatory for Payton to score. He was a point guard, and playmaking was one of the biggest parts of his game. Plus, Redd outscored him by about 2PPG over a career basis.

It wasn't mandatory for Reed to score - just defend and anchor the team. Yet, he had a nice jumper and good post moves - mostly created in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Payton played, what, 16 or so years? Of course his overall numbers will go down because he was averaging garbage when he got older.

Yet we use his title as proof of his greatness, while that title was a direct result of his later garbage years. is tha fair? Its a sword and a shield. I won't deny that Payton was a great scorer, he was. Reed was a better player with a larger impact on the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
I wonder what woul dhave happened to his career numbers if he played as many years as Payton? Probably wouldn't be as good as they are.

Well, if he wasn't injured, his #'s would've been fine, since he was injured he couldn't play -- so he would've had alot of 0's and his averages would've plummeted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Payton's highest scoring average: 23.1PPG
Reed's highest scoring average: 21.7PPG

Payton's career scoring average: 16.3PPG
Reed's career scoring average: 18.7PPG

Payton's career scoring average per 40 minutes: 18.5PPG
Reed's career scoring average per 40 minutes: 18.7PPG

Payton's TS%: .528
Reed's TS%: .523

Payton's eFG%: .496
Reed's eFG%: .476

Payton's FG%: .466
Reed's FG%: .476

Though Reed outscored Payton for the most part, by a hair, Payton, for the most part, was more efficient. So saying he outscored Payton really isn't very worthy of discussion. I'm sure it would be different if Payton didn't have those poor years near the end of his career where his numbers dropped.

Lets be fair, if Reed's 2 points is a hair, then Payton's .005 of ts% and .020 of efg% is a split end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
Come on man. We both know averaging 12RPG is a hell of a lot easier than averaging 12APG.

Yeah, but its not easier than averaging 6apg. If Payton averaged 12apg, he'd be much higher on this list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
We both have different opinions, and both of our facts are worthy arguing. You think Reed, I think Payton. Neither one of us are really truely wrong here. Just different perspectives is all

True enough - I think absent an MVP or dominant finals, Payton cannot enter the discussion yet - especially since there are so many MVP winners out there with titles as the best player on the team - Reed, Unseld, Cowens to start.

But some people prefer guards, I prefer bigs. Can't fight it.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:43 PM   #33
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Yes I remember that now. Only games of those Knick finals(about 3..2 from 70 and one from I think 73) ive seen Walt went off. The 36/19/7 game 7 might be the best all around finals game that anyone not up for GOAT ever played. Reed averaged something like 16 and 8 or 9 in the last title. In the finals reed was 6th leading scorer(3rd on his team) and 4th in rebounding(second on the Knicks). Id love to have seen all those games to see why he got the pick. hard to argue with only having seen one of them.

Either way....Frazier is basically 70s Gary plus rings he sure as hell wasnt a roleplayer for.

And neither belong over Hayes.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:45 PM   #34
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
And a case could be made that none were better than Elvin Hayes who is the 6th all time leading scorer, 4th all time leading rebounder, 12(straight) time all star, champ who made 3 finals, led the league in scoring and rebounding, and made several all nba and all d teams and won ROY. He was a 28/17 player in his prime and one of the few players to prove himself great in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. He was an all star with Wilt and Russell(1969) and an all star with Bird and Magic(1980). Many say his reverse pivot jumper was the second most unstoppable move in history behind Kareems sky hook. And speaking of Kareem it was Hayes(who averaged 37 and 19 his senior year) who broke Kareems near 50 game NCAA win streak when he gave UCLA 39/15 as Kareem had one of his worst games.


The Barry, Dr.J, Kobe people should probably be voting for Big E now. He's the best scorer around. He was also a bad defender and did not rebound his position, as well as a "great" pf should. But he sure could score.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:46 PM   #35
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Yes I remember that now. Only games of those Knick finals(about 3..2 from 70 and one from I think 73) ive seen Walt went off. The 36/19/7 might be the best all around finals game that anyone not up for GOAT ever played. Reed averaged something like 16 and 8 or 9 in the last title. In the finals reed was 6th leading scorer(3rd on his team) and 4th in rebounding(second on the Knicks). Id love to have seen all those games to see why he got the pick. hard to argue with only having seen one of them.

Either way....Frazier is basically 70s Gary plus rings he sure as hell wasnt a roleplayer for.

And neither belong over Hayes.
I think they gave it to Willis because he was the heart and soul of the team. Hell, some experts ranked Walt Frazier over Reed.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:47 PM   #36
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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It wasn't mandatory for Reed to score - just defend and anchor the team. Yet, he had a nice jumper and good post moves - mostly created in the league.
Which is why scoring wise, they were close.
Quote:
Yet we use his title as proof of his greatness, while that title was a direct result of his later garbage years. is tha fair? Its a sword and a shield. I won't deny that Payton was a great scorer, he was.
My point is Payton's career averages were down graded because of his poor years later on in his career. That argument can't be used against Reed because he only played 10 years.
Quote:
Lets be fair, if Reed's 2 points is a hair, then Payton's .005 of ts% and .020 of efg% is a split end.
They're ALL tiny margins. Which is what my point is - the differential is unbelievably tiny, so saying Reed was the better scorer isn't quite legitimate. If you want to say that based on every tiny stat, then technically Reed had some better numbers on offense, but so did Payton. Which is why it's safe to call it even.
Quote:
I think absent an MVP or dominant finals, Payton cannot enter the discussion yet - especially since there are so many MVP winners out there with titles as the best player on the team - Reed, Unseld, Cowens to start.
You can say you don't think be belongs here quite yet, but he is easily worthy of at least a nomination or reasonable argument.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 07-17-2007, 04:49 PM   #38
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by John Starks
That's true - you could not. Reed's impact was greater. The MVP vote and titles prove that. Of everyone in the league, the voters decided that Reed was the best -- and its not like Payton was trapped on bad teams his whole career, he mostly played on good teams. Reed playedi n an era with Jabbar and Chamb and West and Baylor His impact was larger.



It wasn't mandatory for Reed to score - just defend and anchor the team. Yet, he had a nice jumper and good post moves - mostly created in the league.



Yet we use his title as proof of his greatness, while that title was a direct result of his later garbage years. is tha fair? Its a sword and a shield. I won't deny that Payton was a great scorer, he was. Reed was a better player with a larger impact on the game.



Well, if he wasn't injured, his #'s would've been fine, since he was injured he couldn't play -- so he would've had alot of 0's and his averages would've plummeted.



Lets be fair, if Reed's 2 points is a hair, then Payton's .005 of ts% and .020 of efg% is a split end.



Yeah, but its not easier than averaging 6apg. If Payton averaged 12apg, he'd be much higher on this list.



True enough - I think absent an MVP or dominant finals, Payton cannot enter the discussion yet - especially since there are so many MVP winners out there with titles as the best player on the team - Reed, Unseld, Cowens to start.

But some people prefer guards, I prefer bigs. Can't fight it.



1. I am still waiting for how Payton underperformed in the 1996 Finals. Oh wait, I guess you were just talking out of your @ss

2. Like I showed. In Payton's good days, he outscored Reed, and his assist numbers > Reed's rebound numbers because, Payton finished Top 5 in Assists 5 times, and Reed finished Top 5 in rebounds twice...

So Payton scoring > Reed scoring
Payton's Ast > Reed's Reb
And plus, like Richie showed, Payton did it more efficient too



So what does Reed have over Payton now? Just the MVPs? I look at the player first and then the accomplisments. Payton is over Reed when it comes to players.


Reed only played 10 years. Payton had 10 All-Star Caliber Seasons

That says enough on the longevity

Payton > Reed
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:53 PM   #39
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Cant say I watched Elvin many times but in the games ive seen(few finals and a couple all star games) he didnt seem that bad a defender to me. He did make the all D team a few times and is among the blocks leaders even with his first 5 seasons not having blocks recorded. And "rebound his position"? Hes the 4th leading rebounder of all time behind Wilt, Russell, and Kareem, and ahead of Moses Malone. He led the league twice. Doesnt seem to be much to complain about there.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by Glove_20
So what does Reed have over Payton now? Just the MVPs? I look at the player first and then the accomplisments. Payton is over Reed when it comes to players.

That's it - only the accomplishments. I wish I had something better than an MVP, 2 titles and 2 Finals MVP';s for you -- but that's it. Maybe if he did something GREAT - like defend the greatest player in the world in the finals (oh wait he did do that), lead a team to the best record in the league (wait he did do that too), lead the biggest choke jon in league hstory (no that's only payton)


---But go look at the player -- that's soooo much mroe menaigngful that hte "accomplsihments"
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by John Starks
That's it - only the accomplishments. I wish I had something better than an MVP, 2 titles and 2 Finals MVP';s for you -- but that's it. Maybe if he did something GREAT - like defend the greatest player in the world in the finals (oh wait he did do that), lead a team to the best record in the league (wait he did do that too), lead the biggest choke jon in league hstory (no that's only payton)


---But go look at the player -- that's soooo much mroe menaigngful that hte "accomplsihments"

1. Payton also defended the Greatest Player of ALL-TIME
2. Payton also led the Sonics to a Franchise Best Record, 64-18, did Reed get his Knicks that high? Didn't think so
3. And Payton "led" the choke job? First time I heard that a "Role Player" leads the choke jobs. Try again, he was part of it, but he didn't lead it. Kobe/Shaq/Malone were also there, and look, they are on the list
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:04 PM   #42
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by Glove_20
1. Payton also defended the Greatest Player of ALL-TIME
2. Payton also led the Sonics to a Franchise Best Record, 64-18, did Reed get his Knicks that high? Didn't think so
3. And Payton "led" the choke job? First time I heard that a "Role Player" leads the choke jobs. Try again, he was part of it, but he didn't lead it. Kobe/Shaq/Malone were also there, and look, they are on the list
I think he was talkin about the Denver/Seattle series.
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Kevin Garnett.
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:08 PM   #44
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
I think he was talkin about the Denver/Seattle series.
I don't see how he led that either. Putting 16/6 (season numbers) and shooting 50%. It wasn't Payton's fault. I never heard of someone "choking" while shooting 50% in the series.

And thats the biggest in history?

Dallas not only had a better record, but Dallas's series was Best out of 7 too. Miami also lost on Best out of 5, with Seattle. Dallas was the only one to lose best out of 7
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:10 PM   #45
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Default Re: Official #26 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Payton is a prime ring away from top 25? Okay. Top 26 is fine.

Gary Payton for sure.
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