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Old 07-20-2007, 02:52 PM   #1
Manphibian420
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Default Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2943588
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SEATTLE -- The Seattle SuperSonics on Friday acquired veteran forward Kurt Thomas and the Phoenix Suns' first-round draft choices in 2008 and 2010, in exchange for a conditional second round draft choice.

Seattle also used its $9 million trade exception with Phoenix to complete the deal. The Sonics gained the exception from Orlando earlier this month when they completed a sign-and-trade deal that sent Rashard Lewis to the Magic.

Thomas, who turns 35 in October, averaged a career-low 4.6 points per game in 67 games last season while averaging just 18 minutes per night. But he does provide the veteran presence Seattle was seeking to tutor Kevin Durant and Jeff Green, the second and fifth overall selections in last month's draft. The Sonics, who finished 31-51 last season, traded leading scorer Ray Allen to Boston last month. Then Lewis, their second-leading scorer, joined Orlando.

Thomas also comes at the limited cost the rebuilding Sonics were seeking. He has just one season left on a contract that is due to pay him $8.1 million next season.

The deal provides some salary cap relief for Phoenix, which had the NBA's fourth-highest payroll last season at $76.4 million.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press
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Old 07-20-2007, 03:09 PM   #2
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

This could be a huge move for the Suns, or a huge waste, depending on what they do with the TE and newfound flexibility this has created. Combined with the TE from dropping Jones for nothing, we've got more than 11 mil in cap exceptions. This could allow us to trade Marion and ATL's pick for KG with no other contracts needed on our side, that's probably a best case for us. Picking up a couple extra cheap guys like Udoka (imo ready for a Bell type breakout as a top roleplayer), singleton, wheoever could be good enough.

KT was a quality roleplayer, but as he gets older and Amare gets healthier and our young guys get better his role was only going to get even smaller this year. No way is he worth 8 mil for 15 minutes of solid D off the bench, we should be able to find an acceptable replacement for much cheaper. This may also be an indication of the team recommitting fully to the run and gun style, saying they will win the title their way or not at all, rather than trying to match up with the Spurs. At the same time, I hate to see him go. Minus all contract considerations he is not a guy I would want us to lose.

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Old 07-20-2007, 03:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

It must be getting really frustruating being a Suns fan. This is a horrible deal and is only to avoid the tax. They had little depth to begin with, and have moved Thomas and Jones already this year. They gave away TWO #1 picks! Don't say that they are late 1st round so who cares. PHO has sold away many a quality player taken in the late 1st round in the last couple years.

As for the trade exceptions, I could be wrong, but I don't think they can be combined and I actually don't think they can be part of a package. Sounds weird I know, but that is how I believe it works, so they aren't as special as they sound. Again, I could be wrong.

Since the Suns owner is screwing the team to avoid the tax, I doubt they will use the TEs to add players (Salaries) because they would have just kept Jones and Thomas if that was the case.
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Old 07-20-2007, 03:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

Nah, I've got a lot of experience with TE's in the Hardwood Heaven mock offseason. They can be combined (unlike many other cap exceptions), and while they can't be used in a large package they can be used in a 1 for 1 trade of players to make up the difference (ie one 15 mil player and 10 mil TE can be traded for one 25 mil player, but you can't put multiple players together to add up to 15 mil, then add the 10 mil TE, and get a 25 mil guy)

Both Thomas and Jones were overpaid, more than 11 mil combined for the 8th/9th guys in the rotation at best. There are def. cheaper options out there that are just as effective in such small roles. Don't get me wrong, if we had them for half or a third as much money combined it would be indefensible giving them up, but considering they were costing 22 mil after the tax it's a smart move to get rid of them. Much better than giving up a guy like Marion in a pure cap move

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Old 07-20-2007, 05:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

So I understand them giving up the players for future cap flexibility.But wht two first round picks?Wow the sonics are gonna be rolling like two years.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manphibian420
Nah, I've got a lot of experience with TE's in the Hardwood Heaven mock offseason. They can be combined (unlike many other cap exceptions), and while they can't be used in a large package they can be used in a 1 for 1 trade of players to make up the difference (ie one 15 mil player and 10 mil TE can be traded for one 25 mil player, but you can't put multiple players together to add up to 15 mil, then add the 10 mil TE, and get a 25 mil guy)

Both Thomas and Jones were overpaid, more than 11 mil combined for the 8th/9th guys in the rotation at best. There are def. cheaper options out there that are just as effective in such small roles. Don't get me wrong, if we had them for half or a third as much money combined it would be indefensible giving them up, but considering they were costing 22 mil after the tax it's a smart move to get rid of them. Much better than giving up a guy like Marion in a pure cap move

Problem is they won't use the TE. They will let it expire, pure salary dump. Everything I have read about this, each reporter is saying the same things, that it's a pure dump and they have no intention of using the TE. That sucks for Suns fans. Kurt was overpaid for sure, but when you look at the price of bigmen, and the current Suns roster having nobody capable of banging with the elite western conference bigs, this wasn't a good move. Throwing away more 1st rounders...yikes. Also, Jones freakin' started for the Suns in the playoffs I think! Obviously it's a business, but the owner is really hancuffing the Suns depth financially. If CHI could fit him under the cap, I bet the Suns would deal Marion for Deng straight up....they could have had both!

I wonder if they will give away their ATL '08 pick for someone to take Marcus Banks off their hands!
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Old 07-20-2007, 08:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

So your criticism is of... what reporters say the Suns will do? That they "won't" use the TE? The fact is it's way too early to judge that. Instead of pretending you are some sort of psychic and bashing the Suns for what you think will happen, you could be reasonable, have some patience, and pass judgment on this deal after we see if they actually use the TE.
I started off my critique of the move saying it could be a huge move, or a huge waste. Until we have all the facts there is really no way to KNOW which it will be. Maybe the TWolves decided their best bet with KG was to move him for Marion and the ATL pick, but they didn't want to take Kurt's expirer to cover the difference? Maybe some team was willing to talk S+T to let the Suns land another bench guy at a more reasonable price, but the Suns needed enough TE to make it happen cause that team didn't want any salary back? Maybe they have no plans to use the TE at all, and they think their stellar top 7 will get enough help from Banks or the rookies to fill out a solid rotation? Maybe they have no plans at all and Sarver will sell every contract and draft pick he can? The point is, nobody knows, and claiming the "Problem is they won't use the TE" is just naive. Just because all the reporters you have read don't expect the Suns to use the TE doesn't make it a fact. Even the best reporter cannot know what the plans of NBA GM's are for sure; if you get a direct quote from them you can't know if they are telling the truth, saying what the fans want to hear, or maybe even purposely spreading misinformation.
Just because the team didn't want to spend 16+ mil to keep KT on the bench for 1 year doesn't mean they aren't willing to spend 20% of that for a similar role player (PJ Brown maybe? is he still unsigned?)
As for Jones, yeah he has started for stretches. He is also a roleplayer who brings mostly jump shooting with a little D, and he shot .368 from the field and .378 from 3 last year. Considering just about every single shot he takes is wide open, there are hundreds of players who could have been at least as good given the same role. This trade has opened a roster spot, summer league standout Otis George looked like a bigger stronger version of JJ, it's a safe bet he could probably replicate those mediocre results. Jones was force fed playing time all year despite some horrible stretches because D'Antoni was trying to establish a regular role for him.

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Old 07-20-2007, 08:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

Another distinct possibility I didn't mention above that could make this trade a big win for the Suns; What if the Sonics cut/buy out KT and he returns to PHX for the minimum? Look at SEA's roster, they've got Wilcox, Collison, Swift, Petro, and Sene. It also seems like they want Durant/Green to play together at the forward spots eventually. Unless they have another move involving 2 or more of those young big guys I don't see how KT would get to play at all, since they are focused on the future. The trade was obviously about the 1sts for them (which is why PHX had to give 2 of them, Sonics could buy a late 1st next year for cheaper than KT's 8 mil salary). If he were cut loose, PHX would be one of the favorites to pick him up, right (especially if this had been pre-arranged, not really allowed but it happens)? If that happened, the net result of the trade would be trading 2 future 1sts for a 2nd and about 14 mil (depending on exactly what KT's min. deal would be), significantly more than the 6 mil cash you could get back selling them at draft time.
Once again, the point is nobody knows yet exactly what this trade will mean.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

Unfortunately KT can't be dealt for a while now and the Sonics are saying they need a guy like him, basically for grit and to mentor their young bigs.

Obviously nobody knows what will happen, but with the recent history of the Suns owner, unfortunately it looks like it will probably be a salary dump. Yes yes, we won't know for sure. Change my posts to be 'IF' the TE isn't used. Personally, my own opinion as this is a discussion thread, is that the Suns will not use it as it can only be used to take back more salary then you gave....something they haven't shown a willingness to do lately, which is too bad. Hopefully I am wrong.
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Old 07-20-2007, 10:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

I'm not talking about KT being dealt; even if I was, he would be eligible to be traded right away, but could not be traded in combination with other players for 60 days. Either way he could be traded before the season. What I was talking about was the possibility of him being bought out or just cut. Of course the Sonics are saying nice things about him for now, the same way the Blazers were expressing the positives Steve Francis could bring them. No need to badmouth a player being added to your roster. Sure, they might keep him, and he is a solid vet who would not publicly complain, but I can't imagine KT and his agent being satisfied to spend one of his final years wasting away on the bench of one of the leagues worst and youngest teams. Chances are he gets bought out. In any event it is not that specific scenario I am tlaking about, but just the many similar options we now have. I agree they probably won't be going out and using the full TE to add another highly payed player, but that's not what they need. Adding a roleplayer like PJ Brown could replace most everything KT gave us for a fraction of the price.
This isn't a Clippers or Cardinals type situation where the owner is keeping us at or below the cap despite being consistently bad. The Suns have had one of the highest payrolls in the league the last couple years and will still be in the top 5 or so overall payrolls this year, even after just straight cutting the salaries of Jones and Thomas. Everyone makes it sound like Sarver refuses to pay the money needed to be competitive, but that just isn't the case. He's spent as much as any owner in the league outside of New York the last couple years. Even Cuban's Mavs have made a commitment to keeping themselves out of luxury tax range, though Finley's amnesty cut contract doesn't make it look that way on paper.

All of this hype reminds me of when we lost Q and Joe Johnson. Everyone was dropping the Suns down their rankings, and that was before Amare went out for microfracture in training camp. Anyone actually watching the team realized that Q was an overpaid mediocre role player and JJ was very talented but underutilized and replaceable at a much cheaper rate. The same can be said of Jones (the overpaid mediocre role-player) and KT (the good but replaceable piece). Jones has already been upgraded with Hill (though they are different players completely), and any number of guys available for the minimum can give us most or all of what KT was giving us when healthy. Hell, PJ Brown, or Singleton or Alexander Johnson, might be better than him given their advantages in size and youth/athleticism respectively. Those are minimum type guys, the worst case scenario for filling his roster spot. IF the Suns decided to use some of that TE they might be able to get a guy like Varejao for less money than KT was owed (and if they convinced CLE that Banks could help them at PG, he mights not end up adding much more than one of those minimum type players would without Banks leaving).
There are multiple situations where they DON'T use much or any of the TE, and choose not to spend the money as you speculate, and still get better or at least replace KT with an equal player at a tiny fraction of the price.

There is no problem with speculating, but to use that speculation as the base for your criticism of this trade is foolish. Saying this trade is horrible because they won't use the TE is just as short sighted as if I came in and declared this the best trade ever because the Suns will now get KG.

Last edited by Manphibian420 : 07-20-2007 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:22 AM   #11
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Default Re: Suns trade Thomas, 2 future 1sts for TE, 2nd

Now that was a huge mistake, maybe KT had some miles under his belt but..damn!
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