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Old 07-20-2007, 04:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

And why is Patrick Ewing instantly more credible than Pip and GP? How many times has Ewing led a team to the Finals? 2 by my count, and he was hurt in the playoffs of #2, so it was more about Spree and Houston. How many rings has he won? Zero.

I can't stand when people act like this is an exact science. It's an opinion poll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
this thread has lost a lot of credibility with Scottie and GP so high...

Patrick Ewing is my vote
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I'm not trying to nitpick...but several of your links are off. The link for #27 leads to #28, the link for #26 leads to #27, the link for #25 leads to #26, etc.

Like I said, I don't mean to nitpick and I appreciate the work you've put into this process, but it did confuse me for a few minutes when trying to find particular rounds.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Payton being over Hayes, Reed, and Ewing(combined with the fact Drexler, Stockton, and even Scottie are too) is just the type of thing to make me not care where it goes from here. Payton at his peak isnt even top 5 now and neither is Stockton or maybe Drexler and Scottie.

In no order...

Duncan
Kg
Lebron
Kobe
Dirk
Wade

All those players have a case to be over Drexler, Stockton, and Scottie as players though I can see situations where id take one or two of the old guys. And Nash im not even going into. I dont consider his MVPs really justified but it would be hard to argue he didnt peak higher than a few of these guys or on the same level.

And those are guys I grew up on. If I have any bias its towards them. In 96 Gary had a case for 8th or 9th best in the league behind:

Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
Penny
Drob
Karl Malone
Scottie

And probably behind Ewing, Grant Hill, and Barkley. If his best was 99-02 as some believe he had a case for top 7 id say. Depending on exactly which year.

And gets top 30 all time over some MVPS who led up to 3 finals teams and won a title or two? People who were considered the equal(or close to it) of Kareem in his prime like Mcadoo? If you want to go by legacy then the guys like Reed and Hayes simply have ot be over these types to make it recently. By dominance....same thing applies. Only you would have to add a few more guys who peaked high but got wiped out by injury.

I think we passed the point where the legends left have what they did be well known enough to beat out constant campaigning for lesser more modern players.

Ewing would probably have been taken by every GM in the league over every player of the 80s and 90s taken from pick 22 on to now.

But the point where what you did and how good you were matters more than how well you are known and how hard you are fought for has passed.

I take KBlaze off the ignore list after Payton gets selected and he is still lost...


There have been years where Payton was considered Top 3 in the league.

And your off about 1996 as well.


And I love how all your responses are "had a case". Well sure you can make a case for everyone but they are all weak cases. Payton deserves the 28th spot.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 07-20-2007, 04:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

A lot of the craziest things ever believed were supported with "Its just an opinion". I can have the opinion Scottie Pippen is top 10 all time. I have the right to it. Doesnt mean im not wrong. And if its just a matter of accomplishments as far as winning Stockton and Gary still wouldnt be over Reed or Hayes who both made 3 finals and won titles as the key player(With respect to Unseld who has a case as well).

Whole point is its impossible to rank these guys this high without some huge double standards. Going by how high they were ranked in their day, by how much they won in the playoffs, by numbers, or individual dominance...

Number of these guys just dont justify the pick. Got guys who were considered peers with Mitch Richmond, Tim Hardaway, and Sprewell ranked over MVPs who have multiple rings.

Guys who may well have not been top 10 at points of their primes over MVPs with rings and 3 trips to the finals.

Past the point where guys are a common sense pick so it seems what they did just goes out the window in favor of who someone feels like picking. We even have someone who basically claimed Reed should be over who they picked....but they just didnt want him to be.

Its almost like the thing with Kobe only that was brought on by Kobe fans voting for him every round to get him put higher than he deserved. This is just brought on by what seems to be a total lack of respect when one could just vote for a favorite player of theirs.

And since nobody left is easily blowing away everyone else its more easy to defend acting that way. It was due to happen eventually. Just a bit early. Having a group of teenagers with a few late 20s early 30s types voting for the best players of the last 60 years is bound to cause these problems.

But when the 6th all time scorer who is also the 4th all time rebounder, a 12 straight time all star, with 3 finals, a ring, and a scoring and rebounding title with a 28/17 average in his prime while being a star next to Wilt and russell AND Bird and Magic cant make it over a guard who made one finals in his prime and was carried to another couple by following around Shaq(he averaged 7 points on 36% shooting in the 04 playoffs)....

Just screams of a problem in the basic way things are done. At least if people are even gonna pretend accomplishments are what matter the most.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:46 PM   #21
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
There have been years where Payton was considered Top 3 in the league.

By you perhaps. Assuming you mean one of his all nba first team years.....

98 and 2000?


In 98 nobody with a hint of common sense considered him better than Jordan, Malone, or Shaq. Tim Duncan was a rookie but already better than Payton. And in 2000?

Shaq
Duncan
KG

All better. Malone(year removed from his last MVP...underseved as it may have been) and Webber probably were too.

Id bet my life that any poll of fans, gms, or coaches in any season doesnt come up with Payton as top 3. Literally. Id put my life on the line.

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Old 07-20-2007, 04:51 PM   #22
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I'd love to vote for Hayes - and 25 feels about right for him - except I gotta get the MVP's with titles in first - that means Reed, Unseld and Cowens. I'm voting for them all over Hayes. Gotta put Hayes over Walton, though. Give something to longevity.

Reed in my vote - again - I'd love to vary but I cannot
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:52 PM   #23
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
By you perhaps. Assuming you mean one of his all nba first team years.....

98 and 2000?


In 98 nobody with a hint of common sense considered him better than Jordan, Malone, or Shaq. Tim Duncan was a rookie but already better than Payton. And in 2000?

Shaq
Duncan
KG

All better. Malone(year removed from his last MVP...underseved as it may have been) and Webber probably were too.

Id bet my life that any poll of fans, gms, or coaches in any season doesnt come up with Payton as top 3.

Well then you would've lost your life because Payton finished third in MVP voting. Now say "thats different" or whatever, but the point is, its DEFINATELY possible. If he is considered third most valuable by people who watch the NBA all the time, he can definately be "considered" as third best in the league

Leading your team to 61-21, after losing your "2nd best" player and All-Star teammate, Shawn Kemp, thats impressive.

60 wins with the 2nd best player named Vin Baker.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 07-20-2007, 04:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

Id bet my life that any poll of fans, gms, or coaches in any season doesnt come up with Payton as top 3. Literally. Id put my life on the line.
You did not need to add that extra part. Its definately possible. He finished Top 3 in MVP voting and played very hard the whole season to make his seemingly one man team a 60 win team. Very impressive.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:57 PM   #26
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

And in 2000

24/9/7/2 numbers.
While being All-Defensive First
And while leading the whole league in 3pointers Made


Not only that. Taking a team with his best players:


Ruben Patterson (2nd Year)
Vin Baker (Last year's stats were 12/6)


Those were his 2 best teammates. And he took them to the playoffs against the MIGHTY west.




Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Roberstson, I can't name you how many players already above Payton or "supposed" to be above Payton have failed big time to take their team to the playoffs with starcasts much better than Payton's.


Once again, he just played so hard that year and really really wanted to win. Showed his competetivness, even with a 20 win T-Mac starcast, he took them to the playoffs, in the WEST
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:57 PM   #27
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Peja was 4th in MVP voting in 04. Shaq was 6th. That really says it all.
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Old 07-20-2007, 04:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 07-20-2007, 05:00 PM   #29
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Peja was 4th in MVP voting in 04. Shaq was 6th. That really says it all.
Wow, in 2004? really? I am talking about 1998.

Your the one saying on "any poll" Payton wouldn't finish Top 3. And you'd put your life on that.


In 2004 Shaq was surrounded by Kobe, Payton, and Malone, of course he wasn't going to get many votes, especially when his team underperfomed.

In 1998, Shaq was all by himself. Payton was all by himself. Shaq had a better starcast, but Payton's team put the same record.

And voters voted for Payton being more "valuable" than Shaq. Kobe didn't steal any votes from Shaq. It was Payton or Shaq, and Payton was picked.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:07 PM   #30
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Does it really need to be explained to a person who has spent 2 years complaining about Steve Nash why MVP votes dont always go to the best player? Hell most of the people voting for Steve supported it by saying "Its MVP not best player".

I will ask you this very simple question.

In 1998...was Gary Payton a better player than Shaq?

If not....was he better than Jordan? Malone?

If not....what are we even talking about? You and I both know MVP votes dont mean the media(a questionable set of people to ask to begin with) considers you as good as the place you finish. **** Vin Baker was 8th that year ahead of 2 people already on this list.

No GM, coach, or fan with a brain takes Payton over Shaq. not even you would make that case.

The list of guys who get higher voting in MVP than they are considered as players is long and I assume you know this well enough for me to not point out a string of examples.

Payton was never top 3 and I refuse to believe even you believe he was better than MJ, Malone, or Shaq in 98.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 07-20-2007 at 05:09 PM.
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