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Old 07-20-2007, 05:14 PM   #31
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Does it really need to be explained to a person who has spent 2 years complaining about Steve Nash why MVP votes dont always go to the best player? Hell most of the people voting for Steve supported it by saying "Its MVP not best player".

I will ask you this very simple question.

In 1998...was Gary Payton a better player than Shaq?

If not....was he better than Jordan? Malone?

If not....what are we even talking about? You and I both know MVP votes dont mean the media(a questionable set of people to ask to begin with) considers you as good as the place you finish.

No GM, coach, or fan with a brain takes Payton over Shaq. not even you would make that case.

The list of guys who get higher voting in MVP than they are considered as players is long and I assume you know this well enough for me to no point out a string of examples.

Payton was never top 3 and I refuse to believe even you believe he was better than MJ, Malone, or Shaq in 98.


This is how it started out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBlaze
Id bet my life that any poll of fans, gms, or coaches in any season doesnt come up with Payton as top 3. Literally. Id put my life on the line.

I show the 98 MVP voting results. Payton finished third.

Then, you have the Peja and Shaq example. But that example was weak because Shaq's votes got split to Kobe and their team underperformed.

But in 1998, there was no excuses.

Voters had the choice. Shaq or Payton? Both teams won 61 games. Both teams there was 1 unquestionable leader, Shaq and Payton. All votes "3rd" in place Votes were going to Shaq or Payton.

Tell me KBlaze, why would people pick Payton over Shaq then? Both teams won same amount of games, and both had 1 unquestionable leader.

Payton even got 3 1st in place votes, Shaq got only 1. So some considered him best or "most valuable" for the year.




But once again, this isn't about who is better, this is about the "Poll" thing you were saying. This is about whether in a poll Payton would finish Top 3. Both teams had the same record so winning was not a factor in this MVP voting. But the "poll" still picked Payton. You would've lost your life.




As for whose better. You can make a case for Payton. Isn't that what you say? "You can make a case" for _____ for being this and that. And yeah, you could make a case for Payton.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:15 PM   #32
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Patrick Ewing
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:20 PM   #33
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

If the MVP poll were about who the best player is id consider that a poll on if Payton was top 3 or not. Unseld was MVP over Wilt. Kareem has 6 MVPs and not the 10-12 he probably would get if it were on best player. Jordan has 5 not 10. Shaq has 1 not the 4-5 he would if it were best player.

And now im to believe that 1998 is the one year MVP voters voted based on who they considered the best player? **** the same people voted Malone over MJ in 97. That mean you would tell me a poll of the media would rank Malone as better than MJ in 1997?

Ive seen too much anti Nash talk out of you to believe you dont get what im saying here.

MVP voting isnt to the best player even if it should be. being 3rd in it doesnt say the media consideres you #3 in the league and we both know it.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I pick Willis Reed. I would pick Ewing if he had a championship ring.....
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:26 PM   #35
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Here's how I look at it: These are the remaining names from the NBA's 50 greatest players-

Nate Archibald
Paul Arizin
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Patrick Ewing
George Gervin
Hal Greer
Elvin Hayes
Sam Jones
Jerry Lucas
Pete Maravich
Kevin McHale
Earl Monroe
Robert Parish
Willis Reed
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy

Then I check the all time stat leader board and see who has not yet been selected to the ISH top 100

eg. Elvin Hayes is the best scorer and rebounder not yet selected by ISH.

Then I look at the scoring titles, mvps, all star appearances and see who seems to be getting overlooked.

Then I look at titles-very important factor in my estimation.

finally, I pick who I like the best, and if I don't like a player, I never vote for them.

So I'm going to vote for Elvin Hayes this time.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:27 PM   #36
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
If the MVP poll were about who the best player is id consider that a poll on if Payton was top 3 or not. Unseld was MVP over Wilt. Kareem has 6 MVPs and not the 10-12 he probably would get if it were on best player. Jordan has 5 not 10. Shaq has 1 not the 4-5 he would if it were best player.

And now im to believe that 1998 is the one year MVP voters voted based on who they considered the best player? **** the same people voted Malone over MJ in 97. That mean you would tell me a poll of the media would rank Malone as better than MJ in 1997?

Ive seen too much anti Nash talk out of you to believe you dont get what im saying here.

MVP voting isnt to the best player even if it should be. being 3rd in it doesnt say the media consideres you #3 in the league and we both know it.

However, it still gives you a "chance" to be 3rd best player. If you want to look at "POLLS" and only polls

If Payton finished 3rd in MVP, he has a solid chance to finish 3rd in best player. Certainly not "I'll put my life on it" certainty for Shaq being over Payton in a POLL.


Especially if both players were even in Wins, starcast, and everything. There really is no seperation between them in terms of MVP, yet people still voted Payton.




My main point of this post:

Shaq might still win the "3rd best player poll" but its not a "I'll put my life on it" certainty.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:33 PM   #37
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Nah. He has no chance at getting ranked better than Shaq. he might get a vote over him but its the way AI had a shot at the 2000 MVP(AI got the only firstp lace vote Shaq didnt). Just because its not a lock to be unanimous doesnt mean its not a lock to go the expected way. Gary was not top 3 in any season and even with all the Payton related bias in you(and you would have to admit its there....) you cant say otherwise. You dont seem to be saying it at least. This is just argument for arguments sake at this point.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:35 PM   #38
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Nah. He has no chance at getting ranked better than Shaq. he might get a vote over him but its the way AI had a shot at the 2000 MVP(AI got the only firstp lace vote Shaq didnt). Just because its not a lock to be unanimous doesnt mean its not a lock to go the expected way. Gary was not top 3 in any season and even with all the Payton related bias in you(and you would have to admit it there....) you cant say otherwise. You dont seem to be saying it at least. This is just argument for arguments sake at this point.
Fine he can take the 4th spot


What about 2000?

Quote:
24/9/7/2 numbers.
While being All-Defensive First
And while leading the whole league in 3pointers Made


Not only that. Taking a team with his best players:


Ruben Patterson (2nd Year)
Vin Baker (Last year's stats were 12/6)


Those were his 2 best teammates. And he took them to the playoffs against the MIGHTY west.




Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Roberstson, I can't name you how many players already above Payton or "supposed" to be above Payton have failed big time to take their team to the playoffs with starcasts much better than Payton's.


Once again, he just played so hard that year and really really wanted to win. Showed his competetivness, even with a 20 win T-Mac starcast, he took them to the playoffs, in the WEST
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:51 PM   #39
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

2000? Shaq clearly miles ahead. KG was second best in numbers in the league, second in MVP voting(an issue it seems matters to you), also all NBA first team and all D first team, and won 50 games(to Paytons 45) with Brandon, Wally, and Malik Sealy. Id rank Brandon over baker at that point(though Baker put up a rounded off 17/8 that year). But neither had a star filled supporting cast. Baker, Barry, and Patterson vs Brandon, Wally(not even Wally at his best), and Malik. And Duncan was coming off the ring and finals MVP and had all the "All ____ team" honors Payton did while being a flat out more dominant player.

And then there is Webber whos team won just one less game while he had better numbers(25/11/5) and his second best player was Vlade. Kidd, Malone, and Zo were all beasts that year too. **** Allen Iverson led a 49 win team with Tyrone Hill his second best player unless you count Toni Kukoc or Theo Ratliff who were traded for eachother midseason.

Gary was mixed in with a lot of guys in 2000 all of them behind the big 3.
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Old 07-20-2007, 05:55 PM   #40
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Jason Kidd! A player better than Nash, Iverson and Frazier and never got nominated.

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Old 07-20-2007, 05:59 PM   #41
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
2000? Shaq clearly miles ahead. KG was second best in numbers in the league, second in MVP voting(an issue it seems matters to you), also all NBA first team and all D first team, and won 50 games(to Paytons 45) with Brandon, Wally, and Malik Sealy. Id rank Brandon over baker at that point(though Baker put up a rounded off 17/8 that year). But neither had a star filled supporting cast. Baker, Barry, and Patterson vs Brandon, Wally(not even Wally at his best), and Malik. And Duncan was coming off the ring and finals MVP and had all the "All ____ team" honors Payton did while being a flat out more dominant player.

And then there is Webber whos team won just one less game while he had better numbers(25/11/5) and his second best player was Vlade. Kidd, Malone, and Zo were all beasts that year too. **** Allen Iverson led a 49 win team with Tyrone Hill his second best player unless you count Toni Kukoc or Theo Ratliff who were traded for eachother midseason.

Gary was mixed in with a lot of guys in 2000 all of them behind the big 3.

You can "easily" make a case for Payton and Garnett. They are nearly equal.


Brandon was better than Baker NO DOUBT. Baker only had solid numbers because "someone" had to. What did Baker have the year before? Year after? 12/6 type numbers. Brandon was an assist machine from the beggining. And we all know how good KG is in taking teams to playoffs with horrible starcasts, Brandon was good.

KG put what, 23/12/5. Payton put 24/7/9. You could take either numbers. Both are very close. Both were All-Defensive first. Payton led the league in assists and 3 pointers made. Garnett lead the league in ________. Nothing.



So numberwise, Payton had better numbers. Garnett had a better starcast, so he won more games.



But the point is, a good case could be made for Payton no doubt.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:00 PM   #42
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I and a few others voted for J-Kidd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiddlovesnets
Jason Kidd! A player better than Nash, Iverson and Frazier and never got nominated.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:08 PM   #43
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Assuming you dont actually care to measure the numbers then maybe Gary had better numbers. There are exceptions in such things but this isnt one. Garnett, Shaq, Duncan, and Webber had numbers id call better and numbers that by eff are better.

Using what most people would....Gary didnt even have a better season than Karl Malone who was at a rounded off 26/10/4 on a 55 win team. And if Stockton being there removes credit then it probably should remove his credit in every season.

Gary was at no point better than all but 2 people in the league and even in 2000 it would take a stretch to call him as high as tied for third with KG, Webber, Malone, and company.

Im not sure id bet my life he fails to get top 3 from anyone in 2000 as in 98 but id probably bet the life of a friend. Im selfish like that.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:12 PM   #44
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by haji_d_robertas
Here's how I look at it: These are the remaining names from the NBA's 50 greatest players-

Nate Archibald
Paul Arizin
Dave Bing
Dave Cowens
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Patrick Ewing
George Gervin
Hal Greer
Elvin Hayes
Sam Jones
Jerry Lucas
Pete Maravich
Kevin McHale
Earl Monroe
Robert Parish
Willis Reed
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy

Then I check the all time stat leader board and see who has not yet been selected to the ISH top 100

eg. Elvin Hayes is the best scorer and rebounder not yet selected by ISH.

Then I look at the scoring titles, mvps, all star appearances and see who seems to be getting overlooked.

Then I look at titles-very important factor in my estimation.

finally, I pick who I like the best, and if I don't like a player, I never vote for them.

So I'm going to vote for Elvin Hayes this time.
This is how I would rank the remaining 25 players left from 50 Greatest Players of All-Time:



- Walt Frazier
- Elvin Hayes
- Willis Reed
- Dave Cowens
- George Gervin

- Patrick Ewing
- Dolph Schayes
- Wes Unseld
- Kevin McHale
- Billy Cunningham

- Nate Thurmond
- Earl Monroe
- Paul Arizin
- Jerry Lucas
- Hal Greer

- Sam Jones
- Nate Archibald
- Pete Maravich
- James Worthy
- Dave DeBusschere

- Robert Parish
- Bill Walton
- Dave Bing
- Lenny Wilkens
- Bill Sharman

Last edited by L.Kizzle : 07-20-2007 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 07-20-2007, 06:15 PM   #45
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Default Re: Official #29 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Willis Reed for reasons explained by other people.
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