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Old 07-26-2007, 12:40 PM   #31
CakeorDeath
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Ask Okur if he feels like a champion?

Don't have to be the best player on the team to be important. He was a good reserve for them.

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Mike James is a guard just like Steve Francis and he has a ring. How come you don't talk about that.

Because Mike James isn't a 7 footer who shoots threes. I only mentioned Francis to be a smarta$$.

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Rasheed not only shot three's he was posting. What are blind that you can;t see Rasheed posting AND shooting the outside shot. That's what i call a combo forward.

If the argument you are trying to present is that Sheed is multi-faceted and Okur and Dirk are just three point shooters then you should just stop now. Both Dirk and Okur have plenty of back to the basket moves, both play the pick and roll/pick and pop very well, and both can finish in the lane. They are far from being strictly 3-pt jumpshooters.

And by the way, Sheed took 296 threes last year, far more than Dirk's 173 attempts (though admittedly less than Okur's 336).

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Next time you watch Detroit open your eyes and don't just say that Rasheed is a one dimensional player like Nowitzki and Okur.

I never said Wallace was one dimensional; I said he takes a lot of threes, the reason being that he has always been lazy. Much rather shoot jumpers (especially as he ages) than utilize his phenomenal post skills.

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By the way Okur has Boozer inside, he can work the paint.

Wait, I thought you said Okur doesn't have a chance of winning a ring because he has no inside presence?

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If you call Dampier and Diop "complement guys inside" then keep dreaming for a ring.

I'll keep dreaming for a ring, but not for Dallas. I hate the Mavs.

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Or you can keep dreaming about D-Wade and how he EARNED his ring by playing like a real superstar allong Shaq(7 footer that works the paint) thats a real inside precense.

Shaq is a real inside presence. When he plays.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:41 PM   #32
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Wrong. Rebounds aren't bricks; when you have one of your bigs floating around on the three-point line you lose an offensive rebounder and if he's off (as Dirk was vs. Golden State) he's useless, something a seven-footer should never be. But when Jason Kidd is rebounding there is no down side. If anyone could ever find consistent success running their pg (or whoever Kidd is guarding) out whenever Kidd goes for and fails to get an offensive rebound for easy fast break points there might be a similarity but so far no one has managed to hurt Kidd's teams for Kidds' hustling. And seeing as whenever he doesn't get the board Kidd hustles up the floor to play d and rarely if ever gets burned for it, the rebounding effort is nothing but positive.


For the record, although big men taking jumpers isn't completely bad it's definitely been demonstrated that the conventional low-post big is the superior offensive cornerstone. He may average more points but think about the fact that Nowitzki is talking about how Dallas needs a low-post player (and is trying to become more of one himself). Tim Duncan isn't trying to have Dallas find a big-scoring jumpshooting seven-footer, is he?

That's what i'm talking about. There's no disadvantage when Kidd goes and gets the rebound. There is a lot of disadvantage when Dirk is running outside the paint all the time. What Dirk doesn't enough shooting with the guards and forwards outside the paint. For your own good, at least know how to post one of those Golden State guards.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:56 PM   #33
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by CakeorDeath
Don't have to be the best player on the team to be important. He was a good reserve for them.



Because Mike James isn't a 7 footer who shoots threes. I only mentioned Francis to be a smarta$$.



If the argument you are trying to present is that Sheed is multi-faceted and Okur and Dirk are just three point shooters then you should just stop now. Both Dirk and Okur have plenty of back to the basket moves, both play the pick and roll/pick and pop very well, and both can finish in the lane. They are far from being strictly 3-pt jumpshooters.

And by the way, Sheed took 296 threes last year, far more than Dirk's 173 attempts (though admittedly less than Okur's 336).



I never said Wallace was one dimensional; I said he takes a lot of threes, the reason being that he has always been lazy. Much rather shoot jumpers (especially as he ages) than utilize his phenomenal post skills.



Wait, I thought you said Okur doesn't have a chance of winning a ring because he has no inside presence?



I'll keep dreaming for a ring, but not for Dallas. I hate the Mavs.



Shaq is a real inside presence. When he plays.

Wait I said Dallas doesn't have an inside precence and they don't have a chance at a ring. Okur does because he has an inside precence. (Boozer)
Yeah Dirk has a lot of back to the basket moves. You're saying after he got embarassed by Golden State because his shooting touch was off. Don't bring me those kind of comments O.K. With Rasheed. I'll I'm saying is that he can work the paint and can extend the range 25 ft. Not just shoot J's like Dirk. As simple as that. Did you read it? There is no disadvantage with Kidd grabbing rebounds. It helps. Not like Dirk, miss your J's and you're out of the first round. About James, i was just saying the truth. He has a ring just like Okur, and they both sat on the bench. Notice that Detroit had an inside precense when they won. That's my point, you can't win with just shooting like Dirk. Did Deroit need Okur? No but they still won. Can you win without an inside precense? No. Only the Bulls. Can you win with just Dirk, no inside precense? no, that's my point.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by steve franchise
You really think 32% from downtown helped Detroit win a ring. Oh I almost forgot, Rasheed actually has a POST PRESENCE. He can work the paint AND extend the range. Not like Dirk. Is not Dirk's foult that he's tall. It is his foult he let some small guards and forwards (Golden State) take him out of his game. He was the MVP. Baron Davis played better than him, and he was injured. Is not my fault that Dirk doesn't have good role players that can work in the paint. Yeah Shaq's crossover only help in during the All-Star game. Ask him to teach that to Dirk, maybe like that he can drive to the basket.

Did I say that ONLY Bill Laimbeer shooting 32% from three point territory helped Detroit win a ring? No, of course I didn't. That's just ignorance assumption, isn't it? What I said was that Bill Laimbeer was an integral part of winning a ring. Ask -every single Piston player on that team- if he was, and every single one would tell you yes. It's understandable if you're too young to really realize the impact Laimbeer had on that team, and if that's the case, you should really do some serious research before trying to question that. Laimbeer was a great pick and roll player, he was a banger in the paint, he was an enforcer on defense, and he had an excellent outside shot. He didn't rely on the three pointer, but defenders HAD to respect it, which helped spread the defense thin for the Pistons to pick apart.

People can sit and lambast Dirk all they want to, yourself included, but he was outmatched. Every single player in the league was outmatched at some point in their career, that doesn't take away their accomplishments. If Dirk never even makes the playoffs again, that won't take away from what he's accomplished coming into the league as an unknown player projected to be a bust. He is a great shooter and has improved his game every single year. You can "what if" until the cows come home, but at some point everyone gets beat. You want to blame Dirk, and that's fine, but there are plenty of people out there who blame Avery, Cuban, Terry, Dampier, Howard, the refs, the Earth's magnetic field, whatever. **** happens, life goes on, and there's always next season.

Shaq has used his crossover in many games, and you =completely= missed the point. It's not the fact that he has a crossover, but the fact that he has handles. For years people said all Shaq does is get the ball a foot away from the basket, overpower his defender and dunk. That's it. They say he can't shoot, he isn't clutch, he doesn't have handles, he can't face-up, and he has a completely one-dimensional game. That's simply not the case. But if you can get in the paint and guarantee two points, you're going to do it. He's going to dominate until you find a way to stop him. If he was one-dimensional, once you stopped that one way, he'd be completely ineffective and useless on the court, and again, that's simply not the case. Shaq has the ability to face up, he has the handles to take his man of the dribble. It's not his strength, but he has that ability. By saying seven footers shouldn't shoot outside, you're essentially saying that players -should- be pigeonholed by their size and shouldn't learn skills outside of their position. Sorry, but that's incredibly flawed thinking.

If I would've realized that the agenda behind your post was simply to rag on Dirk because Golden State beat Dallas, I wouldn't have even bothered trying to contribute. That dead horse has been beaten into a pancake. There's nothing more to be said about it, the only thing that can be done is to see what happens next year. If Golden State knocks Dallas out in the first round again next year then we can do some equine exhuming. But if that's your only point to make, it's a real, real tired one.

All we can do is see how he and the Mavericks grow. If they fail again, then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate and shake things up. I personally don't see Dallas losing to Golden State in black and white matters like "OMG LOLZZ!!!111 DRK SUX!!11". It wasn't Golden State versus Dirk Nowitski you know. There's plenty of blame to be spread around. I see it as Don Nelson simply outcoaching Avery Johnson. He knew Dirk's strengths and weaknesses, he had the players that were able to do what he knew would disrupt Dirk's game and force the rest of the team to try and compensate, and we all know what Nellie's opinion of the rest of that team is. He was livid when Cuban let Nash go for absolutely nothing, and disgusted when Jason Terry was brought in as the replacement. He knew that Terry couldn't pick up the slack if Dirk wasn't carrying the team, so he put Dallas in that situation and beat them. Of course, it's not that black and white either, but to me that was more important than Dirk failing to overcome the adversity he was challenged with.

But then, I don't have an agenda about this matter. People tend to see things a bit clearer and a bit more logically than those that have such ulterior motives.

Enjoy beating your dead horse.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Okur has some inside game but Nowitzki's post game is really only used when he has a major height advantage...and I've seen him fail to take advantage of that too, having Bruce Bowen on him and still not trying to take him to the paint.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:10 PM   #36
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by JalenRawley
Did I say that ONLY Bill Laimbeer shooting 32% from three point territory helped Detroit win a ring? No, of course I didn't. That's just ignorance assumption, isn't it? What I said was that Bill Laimbeer was an integral part of winning a ring. Ask -every single Piston player on that team- if he was, and every single one would tell you yes. It's understandable if you're too young to really realize the impact Laimbeer had on that team, and if that's the case, you should really do some serious research before trying to question that. Laimbeer was a great pick and roll player, he was a banger in the paint, he was an enforcer on defense, and he had an excellent outside shot. He didn't rely on the three pointer, but defenders HAD to respect it, which helped spread the defense thin for the Pistons to pick apart.

People can sit and lambast Dirk all they want to, yourself included, but he was outmatched. Every single player in the league was outmatched at some point in their career, that doesn't take away their accomplishments. If Dirk never even makes the playoffs again, that won't take away from what he's accomplished coming into the league as an unknown player projected to be a bust. He is a great shooter and has improved his game every single year. You can "what if" until the cows come home, but at some point everyone gets beat. You want to blame Dirk, and that's fine, but there are plenty of people out there who blame Avery, Cuban, Terry, Dampier, Howard, the refs, the Earth's magnetic field, whatever. **** happens, life goes on, and there's always next season.

Shaq has used his crossover in many games, and you =completely= missed the point. It's not the fact that he has a crossover, but the fact that he has handles. For years people said all Shaq does is get the ball a foot away from the basket, overpower his defender and dunk. That's it. They say he can't shoot, he isn't clutch, he doesn't have handles, he can't face-up, and he has a completely one-dimensional game. That's simply not the case. But if you can get in the paint and guarantee two points, you're going to do it. He's going to dominate until you find a way to stop him. If he was one-dimensional, once you stopped that one way, he'd be completely ineffective and useless on the court, and again, that's simply not the case. Shaq has the ability to face up, he has the handles to take his man of the dribble. It's not his strength, but he has that ability. By saying seven footers shouldn't shoot outside, you're essentially saying that players -should- be pigeonholed by their size and shouldn't learn skills outside of their position. Sorry, but that's incredibly flawed thinking.

If I would've realized that the agenda behind your post was simply to rag on Dirk because Golden State beat Dallas, I wouldn't have even bothered trying to contribute. That dead horse has been beaten into a pancake. There's nothing more to be said about it, the only thing that can be done is to see what happens next year. If Golden State knocks Dallas out in the first round again next year then we can do some equine exhuming. But if that's your only point to make, it's a real, real tired one.

All we can do is see how he and the Mavericks grow. If they fail again, then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate and shake things up. I personally don't see Dallas losing to Golden State in black and white matters like "OMG LOLZZ!!!111 DRK SUX!!11". It wasn't Golden State versus Dirk Nowitski you know. There's plenty of blame to be spread around. I see it as Don Nelson simply outcoaching Avery Johnson. He knew Dirk's strengths and weaknesses, he had the players that were able to do what he knew would disrupt Dirk's game and force the rest of the team to try and compensate, and we all know what Nellie's opinion of the rest of that team is. He was livid when Cuban let Nash go for absolutely nothing, and disgusted when Jason Terry was brought in as the replacement. He knew that Terry couldn't pick up the slack if Dirk wasn't carrying the team, so he put Dallas in that situation and beat them. Of course, it's not that black and white either, but to me that was more important than Dirk failing to overcome the adversity he was challenged with.

But then, I don't have an agenda about this matter. People tend to see things a bit clearer and a bit more logically than those that have such ulterior motives.

Enjoy beating your dead horse.

I'm not saying tall players that extend the range are not useful. I'm saying Dirk (tall guy=extends the range) needs to develope an inside precense or get one. Or else he's going to keep dreaming about D-Wade and Golden State. I'm mot judging Dirk on the golden state series, but his career. And answer me this. could your Laimbeer had been the star and surround him with superstars? No right. That's what Dallas is doing with Nowitzki.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:15 PM   #37
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

This thread has clearly been created to bash Dirk, not that I care, but i had to say it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:16 PM   #38
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

JalenRawley I think you're missing the point. Don Nelson knew Dirk's weaknesses because he is partially responsible for them. Dirk isn't a big man jumpshooter by preference. He's a big man jumpshooter because he does not have the balls or the ability to punish a team for sending a shooting guard out to guard him. Don Nelson knowing this is not Avery Johnson's fault. It's Dirk's for having that gigantic hole in his game to begin with.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
JalenRawley I think you're missing the point. Don Nelson knew Dirk's weaknesses because he is partially responsible for them. Dirk isn't a big man jumpshooter by preference. He's a big man jumpshooter because he does not have the balls or the ability to punish a team for sending a shooting guard out to guard him. Don Nelson knowing this is not Avery Johnson's fault. It's Dirk's for having that gigantic hole in his game to begin with.

So for now everybody knows the heavy weaknesses Dirk has.

Do you predict he will score 19.7 ppg next season? Or lesser?
And the Mavericks miss the playoffs because of that? :)
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:07 PM   #40
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
JalenRawley I think you're missing the point. Don Nelson knew Dirk's weaknesses because he is partially responsible for them. Dirk isn't a big man jumpshooter by preference. He's a big man jumpshooter because he does not have the balls or the ability to punish a team for sending a shooting guard out to guard him. Don Nelson knowing this is not Avery Johnson's fault. It's Dirk's for having that gigantic hole in his game to begin with.

Iím not missing the point, I called the point out: The point of this thread is merely to bash Dirk. Itís a waste of time.

You can sit and bash every single player in the league for the things they donít do, but when youíre trying to bash a player for the things he does well thatís just plain ignorant.

Dirk had a coach in Germany you know. Itís not like he was just a tall guy who never saw a basketball before Don Nelson took that simple lump of clay and molded him into a jumpshooter. Dirk obviously is a good jump shooter, I donít think anyone is arguing against that point, and again every single year heís showed growth in his game. His team made the Finals the year before last, last year his team was the best team in the regular season, and he was the MVP of the league. You donít achieve these things by being a spot up jumpshooter. In my opinion, the big blow to Dirk came when Nash left. To this day, Dallas still does not have a single player who excels in getting the ball to the scorers in the right place. Terry is -not- a point guard. Harris is -not- a point guard. Theyíre both combo guards. Theyíre good, and they required adjustments from the whole team, but neither one of those players is Steve Nash. Terry and Harris do not make the players around them better. And again, people can argue until the cows come home about how Steve Nash makes the players around him better, he -definitely- made Dirk a better player, and Dirk made him a better player. They worked out together, they played a LOT together, they had chemistry, and most of all, Steve was a distributer and Dirk was a scorer. Dirk wasnít brought in to put the Mavericks on his shoulders, and thatís just not the type of player he is. And although it can be argued that Nash is, I personally donít think he is either. But together, plus Finley, plus whoever else is on the same page working with them, they were able to progress without that superstar with the world on his shoulders.

You canít blame Dirk for being something heís not. Thatís like blaming Kobe for not being egoless, or Lebron for not being a pure shooter, or Shaq for not being a finesse player. Kobe has an ego, he thinks he can do anything, and thatís a integral part of who he is and what he is able to do. If he didnít have that confidence, thereís no way heíd be the player he is today. Lebron isnít a pure shooter, he makes up for it with his athleticism and his natural ability to play the game. If he was an incredible shooter, he probably wouldnít have developed the other parts of his game the way he has. Shaq is not soft. If he had Luc Longleyís game, would he have achieved what he has? Itís a personís strengths and weaknesses that make them who they are. Hell, why donít you blame Allen Iverson for being short? If he was 6'8" would he have been so aggressive and so tough? Would he have been so quick? Would he have the crossover/penetration game he has? Maybe, maybe not, but itís the combination of those strengths and weaknesses that define what a player will become.

In my opinion, asking Dirk to do things that arenít a strength in his game is no different than when Horace Grant left the Bulls and they asked Scottie Pippen to rebound more and play more power forward to make up for the loss and so Toni Kukoc could play the small forward position. Pippen was a good rebounder in his career, but sorry, heís not Horace Grant, and asking him to be Horace Grant is not within his capabilities, let alone the fact that itís a bit offensive to have someone ask you to sacrifice what youíre good at to do things youíre not good at because your front office ****ed up.

And whaddaya know, that brings us full circle to Dallas.

You want Dirk Nowitski to be something heís not because the front office ****ed up and let Nash go, and replaced him with players that didnít feel the needs that needed to be filled. If I were Dirk, Iíd be pushing for Dallas to trade him to Phoenix for Marion!
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:08 PM   #41
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Wrong. Rebounds aren't bricks; when you have one of your bigs floating around on the three-point line you lose an offensive rebounder and if he's off (as Dirk was vs. Golden State) he's useless, something a seven-footer should never be. But when Jason Kidd is rebounding there is no down side. If anyone could ever find consistent success running their pg (or whoever Kidd is guarding) out whenever Kidd goes for and fails to get an offensive rebound for easy fast break points there might be a similarity but so far no one has managed to hurt Kidd's teams for Kidds' hustling. And seeing as whenever he doesn't get the board Kidd hustles up the floor to play d and rarely if ever gets burned for it, the rebounding effort is nothing but positive.


For the record, although big men taking jumpers isn't completely bad it's definitely been demonstrated that the conventional low-post big is the superior offensive cornerstone. He may average more points but think about the fact that Nowitzki is talking about how Dallas needs a low-post player (and is trying to become more of one himself). Tim Duncan isn't trying to have Dallas find a big-scoring jumpshooting seven-footer, is he?

Kidd goes out and actively tries to get those boards. I'm a fan of it, actually. But conventional point guards don't try to get boards the way Kidd does, which is of course the reason he gets so many. He still gets in a position that is not perfect defesively, and it still costs him energy he could use some other way.

7 footers, or let's not call them 7footers (because what does size have to do with you position), big men who have long shooting range. Really there is no downside to it by default.
Of course, any skill can be used the wrong way. You don't want your big men hanging out on the perimeter too much, but when they can get open on the perimeter and knock it down at a high percentage, that's just a terrific weapon to add to your team.

Nowitzky and Okur are always regarded as the posterboys of big men who can shoot. But they are very incomplete players for their position. I never said it's better for a big to have shooting range over a post game.
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:15 PM   #42
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by Silverbullit
So for now everybody knows the heavy weaknesses Dirk has.

Do you predict he will score 19.7 ppg next season? Or lesser?
And the Mavericks miss the playoffs because of that? :)
teams wont have the time or need to gameplan for Dirk until the playoffs...SO I look for Dirk to have an good regular season and then face either the Lakers, Warrior or Denver..

George Karl will stick AI on Dirk and cut him off on ever drive and force him into fadeaway 15-20 footers and box him out from plays and get tons of steals...Sad thing is that Dirk really cant post up AI...

Or Kobe will guard Dirk and do the same thing, might have to go with Derek Fisher to save energy though
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:16 PM   #43
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
Nowitzki and Okur are always regarded as the posterboys of big men who can shoot. But they are very incomplete players for their position. I never said it's better for a big to have shooting range over a post game.

Nowitzki leads the league in Winshares three years in a row.
Not bad for a "very incomplete" player!
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullit
Nowitzki leads the league in Winshares three years in a row.
Not bad for a "very incomplete" player!
im confused..what is a winshare and are you really trying to say Dirk is a complete player??? the fact that Dirk cant post up Monta Ellis and Steve Nash disproves that...
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullit
Nowitzki leads the league in Winshares three years in a row.
Not bad for a "very incomplete" player!

In comes the homers. Did I say Dirk was a bad player? No. Now try to type with a straight face Dirk has post skills that can match any of his elite PF peers.
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