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Old 07-26-2007, 02:27 PM   #46
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
im confused..what is a winshare and are you really trying to say Dirk is a complete player??? the fact that Dirk cant post up Monta Ellis and Steve Nash disproves that...

About Winshares:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Dirk has 27.0 ppg, 12.1 rpg and 3.6 apg versus Nash.
Dirk has 23.7 ppg, 10.7 rpg and 3.3 apg versus Ellis.

What do you want to disprove?
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:30 PM   #47
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJJ
In comes the homers. Did I say Dirk was a bad player? No. Now try to type with a straight face Dirk has post skills that can match any of his elite PF peers.

Did I say Dirk was a stellar post player? No. I'll never praise his post skills, but I praise his other skills!
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:37 PM   #48
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by steve franchise
Yeah but the difference is that when they get GUARDS on him like Golden State did on Nowitzki he can post them up. He would probably dominate the boards and have thirty point game, posting those guards or small forwards whatever. He is a combo forward not like Dirk which is a one dimentional player. What else do you want from Sheed he can shoot the outside shot AND post. He's not one dimensional like Dirk. If you actually watched Basketball you knew Rasheed's characteristics. Don't waste my time, end the thread like that. I wouldn't have a problem with Dirk if he had SOME post up moves.
Plus Rasheed had the advantage to step out and hit them three's because he had McDyess and Maxiell in there, not guys like Dampier and Diop.
I been having my facts all along you get yours right, just ask anybody out there if rasheed is a post presence.
Well i never said sheed doesnt have a post presence:rollingeyes:
.... the pistons do a lot of pick n pop... once i seen sheed go 1 of 11 from 3's while having a smaller player(pg) on him...
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:42 PM   #49
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

european ballers play a different game overseas, so it shouldn't be surprising to see bigs coming over here and lighting it up from the outside. those type of players are common over there i believe.

i don't have a problem seeing big guys shooting 3's as long as they have a well balanced skill pattern, which sometimes doesn't seem to occur.
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:42 PM   #50
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by steve franchise
I'm not saying tall players that extend the range are not useful. I'm saying Dirk (tall guy=extends the range) needs to develope an inside precense or get one. Or else he's going to keep dreaming about D-Wade and Golden State. I'm mot judging Dirk on the golden state series, but his career. And answer me this. could your Laimbeer had been the star and surround him with superstars? No right. That's what Dallas is doing with Nowitzki.

First of all, he's not "my" Laimbeer, he's just Bill Laimbeer.

Second of all, who are you to judge Dirk Nowitzki on ANYTHING. If Dirk took a look at your accomplishments, or obvious lack thereof, how would he judge you? How would you compare? And I've just gotta ask, is an "inside precense" kind of like incense? Maybe incense before it's incense? Or do you mean an "inside presence"? It's pretty easy to point fingers, but I'm sure you've got a billion excuses for your own shortcomings. Now with that out of the way...

ANYONE with extensive shooting range is useful. Big men with extensive shooting range are especially useful. It's called a "matchup problem". If you've got two big men who can consistently hit from deep and you're playing a team with a big, slow, plodding center, you're going to make the game difficult for that big, slow, plodding center. You're going to make him work harder on defense, which hopefully will translate into him being less effective on offense, or better yet might get him into foul trouble as he's playing a little more out of his element, and removes him from making an impact on the game entirely.

It's called strategy, not just get a bunch of great players, throw 'em out on the floor and watch 'em dominate. If that worked, you wouldn't be hearing about Team USA's struggles.

Could Bill Laimbeer be a star? I don't think so, no. That's not what his strength was. So let's say after that first title, Detroit traded away Dumars, Thomas, Johnson, Aguirre, Rodman and what the hell, letís throw in John Salley for a bunch of absolutely worthless scrubs, and put them around Laimbeer with him as their star. Is it Laimbeerís fault because he wonít thrive in that environment? Is it Laimbeerís fault because the franchise built a team around a player who is a complementary piece and not Atlas, with the world on his shoulders? No, itís the front officeís fault for expecting a player to do things that simply arenít in his make up.

Fast-forward to the present, could Dirk Nowitzki be a star? Maybe, maybe not. I personally donít think so. I think heís a complementary piece, much like Lamar Odom isnít a star but a complementary piece. Now, Dirkís a really good complementary piece, but heís not going to go out and get you 20 rebounds a game, heís not going to go out and drop 15 assists a game, but he is going to give you an array of offense inside and out. And yes, his inside game has expanded exponentially since he was drafted. Heís no Kevin McHale, but heís not Trajan Langdon either. Now, is it Dirkís fault because he doesnít have the skillset to put the Mavericks on his shoulders, or is it the fault of the franchise who literally gave away successful building blocks to build around a player with the intent on putting him in a position where his strengths do not lie? Again, you canít fault Dirk because he has different strengths than you think he should have. Dirk is a shooter and a scorer. Since Nellie left, the goal has been to keep Dirk off of the three and bring him a little closer for higher percentage shots. More and more, heíll be expanding his game to try and be a complete offensive player, just like he has been, but sorry folks, heís not Michael Jordan, heís not Kobe Bryant, and heís definitely not Steve Nash. You want a successful team with Dirk? Give him a guy to get him the ball, give him a guy to rebound the ball (because you canít logically expect your primary range shooter to be your primary rebounder, do the math), and give him a second option to share the responsibilities with, because we all know that 1 on 5 basketball doesnít work, because you can shut down one guy, but itís pretty tough to shut down a team.

So once again, is that Dirkís fault, or Dallasí fault? Common sense says that building around a player requires building around their strengths, not building around the things they canít do and hoping theyíll immediately develop those skills and succeed. However, Dirk is the first guy to stand up and take responsibility. Heís the first guy to work on his game and try his best to expand his game, and heís the last guy to say ďWell, if someone would make a right move around here for once, maybe we wouldnít have this problem.Ē So even though itís obviously not solely his fault, he will accept all of the blame. And you guys want to **** on him for that? Thatís a real shame. Iíd rather have him than some punkass who points fingers at everyone else as if heís completely infallible, demanding to be traded.

And no, that's not intended to be a Kobe reference, even though it is quite fitting.
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:52 PM   #51
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullit
About Winshares:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Dirk has 27.0 ppg, 12.1 rpg and 3.6 apg versus Nash.
Dirk has 23.7 ppg, 10.7 rpg and 3.3 apg versus Ellis.

What do you want to disprove?

A complete basketball player would be able to post up Monta Ellis...So until Dirk can post up players a foot shoter then him he isnt complete...Dirk's post game only gets exploited in the post season when teams pull out all there extra stuff they dont show during the regular season...

Dirks post game has been exploited 3 times all in the playoffs..

1. When T-Mac and Ryan Bowen were guarding him..they still one but Dirk's post game was shown to be non existent

2. Vs.. the heat when Poesy and Haslem just bodied him...

3...Vs. GSW when Stephen Jackson bodied him and had him shooting fadeaway air balls and getting his shot pinned on the backboard on post moves...

How is that a complete player..stats have nothing to do with it...Lebron isnt a complete player but he has great stats though...Please tell me how even without a post game that Dirk is complete
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
A complete basketball player would be able to post up Monta Ellis...So until Dirk can post up players a foot shoter then him he isnt complete...Dirk's post game only gets exploited in the post season when teams pull out all there extra stuff they dont show during the regular season...

Dirks post game has been exploited 3 times all in the playoffs..

1. When T-Mac and Ryan Bowen were guarding him..they still one but Dirk's post game was shown to be non existent

2. Vs.. the heat when Poesy and Haslem just bodied him...

3...Vs. GSW when Stephen Jackson bodied him and had him shooting fadeaway air balls and getting his shot pinned on the backboard on post moves...

How is that a complete player..stats have nothing to do with it...Lebron isnt a complete player but he has great stats though...Please tell me how even without a post game that Dirk is complete

I never said he is complete!
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:28 PM   #53
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

This topic is pretty simple actually.

Dirk, or Okur, for the matter, play that way cause they are that way. Can't knock on them for being tall and having a jumpshot. Can't knock on Dirk not posting up so much. If you don't want a 7 footer taking jumpshots then just don't sign him or build around him.

But wait, Dirk is not only a 7ft jumpshooter, he also rebounds well even while just shooting J's, lead a "flawed" team to a finals appearance.

So stop crying if the Mavs thought that they could win a ship with Dirk. If every team wanted to win a ship then they should just sign people like Tim Duncan, Shaq, and Rasheed Wallace.

Ho and behold not many players in the league like Tim Duncan, Shaq, and Rasheed Wallace.

So what do other teams do? Sign the Carlos Boozers, the Dirk Nowitzkis, the Kobe Bryants.

Carlos Boozer is NOT your prototypical PF. He is 6'8. According to some of the above respondents, he should be shooting threes and develop a slashing game.

How can you tell a team and/or its fans "Oh sorry, we missed out on TD, Shaq, and Wallace, so were just gonna suck until we grab Greg Oden in next year's draft." Or worse "Sorry, we missed out on TD, Shaq, and Wallace, so were just gonna sign Udonis Haslem and make him our go to guy, coz you know, building a team around 7ft jumpshooters won't get you anywhere"

So even if all the people know that Dirk can never ever ever win a championship, how can you prevent a team from building a team around him, seeing he has shown he could lead crap team to the finals and BEAT TD on the way.

Let's see how many teams have a realistic chance at the championship next year? Spurs, Suns... and yeah.. the Mavs.

Hope you guys figure out why I put Rasheed Wallace in there.
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:36 PM   #54
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by gasolina
Hope you guys figure out why I put Rasheed Wallace in there.

Because the ball don't lie?
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:16 PM   #55
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve franchise
I dont know why 7-footers make their living shooting 3s as if they were guards.That's why Okur got outscored by Yao and Duncan, I now ya'll probally gonna say that Utah still won the series but it wasnt because of Okur.

And that's why Dallas got knocked out of the first round, because Nowitzki was shooting Jays instead of working on the paint. After Dallas lost against Golden State Nowitzki said "We obviously needed an inside precense" ( That was a seven footer saying that) Dirk that was your job.

Why do you think trailblazers chose Oden over Durant. They're thinking big. Every championship team has had an inside precense and with Dallas not having one I wouldn't be surprised if they keep dreaming for a ring.
Championship teams had guys like: Bill Rusell, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem , Rasheed and Big Ben, Duncan, and later on Yao is going to be on the list.

Nowitski, Baragani, Yi, and Okur might extend the range but to they won't ever win a ring without an inside precense.


Well Rusell, Hakeem and Big Ben are not 7 footer and Rasheed who a 7 footer w/ shoes shoot 3s, sometime way to many for a guy that have a really good offense in the post.
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:34 PM   #56
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by JalenRawley
Iím not missing the point, I called the point out: The point of this thread is merely to bash Dirk. Itís a waste of time.

You can sit and bash every single player in the league for the things they donít do, but when youíre trying to bash a player for the things he does well thatís just plain ignorant.

Dirk had a coach in Germany you know. Itís not like he was just a tall guy who never saw a basketball before Don Nelson took that simple lump of clay and molded him into a jumpshooter. Dirk obviously is a good jump shooter, I donít think anyone is arguing against that point, and again every single year heís showed growth in his game. His team made the Finals the year before last, last year his team was the best team in the regular season, and he was the MVP of the league. You donít achieve these things by being a spot up jumpshooter. In my opinion, the big blow to Dirk came when Nash left. To this day, Dallas still does not have a single player who excels in getting the ball to the scorers in the right place. Terry is -not- a point guard. Harris is -not- a point guard. Theyíre both combo guards. Theyíre good, and they required adjustments from the whole team, but neither one of those players is Steve Nash. Terry and Harris do not make the players around them better. And again, people can argue until the cows come home about how Steve Nash makes the players around him better, he -definitely- made Dirk a better player, and Dirk made him a better player. They worked out together, they played a LOT together, they had chemistry, and most of all, Steve was a distributer and Dirk was a scorer. Dirk wasnít brought in to put the Mavericks on his shoulders, and thatís just not the type of player he is. And although it can be argued that Nash is, I personally donít think he is either. But together, plus Finley, plus whoever else is on the same page working with them, they were able to progress without that superstar with the world on his shoulders.

You canít blame Dirk for being something heís not. Thatís like blaming Kobe for not being egoless, or Lebron for not being a pure shooter, or Shaq for not being a finesse player. Kobe has an ego, he thinks he can do anything, and thatís a integral part of who he is and what he is able to do. If he didnít have that confidence, thereís no way heíd be the player he is today. Lebron isnít a pure shooter, he makes up for it with his athleticism and his natural ability to play the game. If he was an incredible shooter, he probably wouldnít have developed the other parts of his game the way he has. Shaq is not soft. If he had Luc Longleyís game, would he have achieved what he has? Itís a personís strengths and weaknesses that make them who they are. Hell, why donít you blame Allen Iverson for being short? If he was 6'8" would he have been so aggressive and so tough? Would he have been so quick? Would he have the crossover/penetration game he has? Maybe, maybe not, but itís the combination of those strengths and weaknesses that define what a player will become.

In my opinion, asking Dirk to do things that arenít a strength in his game is no different than when Horace Grant left the Bulls and they asked Scottie Pippen to rebound more and play more power forward to make up for the loss and so Toni Kukoc could play the small forward position. Pippen was a good rebounder in his career, but sorry, heís not Horace Grant, and asking him to be Horace Grant is not within his capabilities, let alone the fact that itís a bit offensive to have someone ask you to sacrifice what youíre good at to do things youíre not good at because your front office ****ed up.

And whaddaya know, that brings us full circle to Dallas.

You want Dirk Nowitski to be something heís not because the front office ****ed up and let Nash go, and replaced him with players that didnít feel the needs that needed to be filled. If I were Dirk, Iíd be pushing for Dallas to trade him to Phoenix for Marion!

Let me put it to you clearly without typing a book
List of 7-footers with rings: YOU KNOW ALL THE BIG NAMES
List without rings: Dirk, Yao(5-year career), Mutumbo, Ewing. These people were 7-ft stars that never won or have won a ring.
If Dirk doesn't have an inside precense, let the front office get one, Dirk cannot win without a big man in the middle. That's my point. As simple as that. I just don't like it when Dirk can't post smaller guys, he can shoot over them but like i said if he's touch is off, then there's no game left. That's the bad thing about being a one dimensional player.
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Old 07-26-2007, 09:43 PM   #57
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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Originally Posted by el_locoteee
Well Rusell, Hakeem and Big Ben are not 7 footer and Rasheed who a 7 footer w/ shoes shoot 3s, sometime way to many for a guy that have a really good offense in the post.

You even said it, at least Rasheed has an inside post game not like Dirk. Rusell wasn't a seven footer but was there a disadvantage with him working inside? No. In Dirk's case is different. He goes out there and takes jumpshots that a guard is suppose to take, there's nothing wrong with that. But when you see that guards all over you, punish them like a real MVP in the post.
Hakeem WAS a seven footer. Is there something wrong with Big Ben grabing rebounds? Are You against that? That's why he gets critized too because he has no offense at all. I wouldn't have a problem with Dirk if he like Rasheed, had SOME post up game. At least enough to get those smaller guys off your back.
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:01 PM   #58
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasolina
This topic is pretty simple actually.

Dirk, or Okur, for the matter, play that way cause they are that way. Can't knock on them for being tall and having a jumpshot. Can't knock on Dirk not posting up so much. If you don't want a 7 footer taking jumpshots then just don't sign him or build around him.

But wait, Dirk is not only a 7ft jumpshooter, he also rebounds well even while just shooting J's, lead a "flawed" team to a finals appearance.

So stop crying if the Mavs thought that they could win a ship with Dirk. If every team wanted to win a ship then they should just sign people like Tim Duncan, Shaq, and Rasheed Wallace.

Ho and behold not many players in the league like Tim Duncan, Shaq, and Rasheed Wallace.

So what do other teams do? Sign the Carlos Boozers, the Dirk Nowitzkis, the Kobe Bryants.

Carlos Boozer is NOT your prototypical PF. He is 6'8. According to some of the above respondents, he should be shooting threes and develop a slashing game.

How can you tell a team and/or its fans "Oh sorry, we missed out on TD, Shaq, and Wallace, so were just gonna suck until we grab Greg Oden in next year's draft." Or worse "Sorry, we missed out on TD, Shaq, and Wallace, so were just gonna sign Udonis Haslem and make him our go to guy, coz you know, building a team around 7ft jumpshooters won't get you anywhere"

So even if all the people know that Dirk can never ever ever win a championship, how can you prevent a team from building a team around him, seeing he has shown he could lead crap team to the finals and BEAT TD on the way.

Let's see how many teams have a realistic chance at the championship next year? Spurs, Suns... and yeah.. the Mavs.

Hope you guys figure out why I put Rasheed Wallace in there.

Is there a disadvantage when Boozer is posting No? Is there a disadvantage when Dirk is settling for jump shots? Yes. He is a good player, i would even like to have him in my team. I'm just saying that he needs to develope a post play, or get one. Dampier and Diop are trash at offensive threats in the paint.
Dirk rebounds( what he's suppose to be doing) but that doesn't solve his posting ability weakness. You really think Dallas can win without a post precense, Dirk is begging to get one. By the way, did you see what happened to the Lakers when they tried to build around the Kobe. He won rings with a post precense. And TD, Rasheed, Shaq have rings. Can Kobe do it without Shaq? Thank You for reading my point. Suns have Amare, that's why they're contenders. they have someone inside. Not like Dallas.
Let teams build around Kobe(no shaq in his team), Dirk, and read your results. NO RING. Dirk got by TD but once again the Spurs with their big man have demostrated that Inside post wins rings. Dallas? I guess TD gave him a shot at the ring. He once again failed to respond to post guys like Posey and smaller ones.
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:09 PM   #59
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

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I dont know why 7-footers make their living shooting 3s as if they were guards.That's why Okur got outscored by Yao and Duncan, I now ya'll probally gonna say that Utah still won the series but it wasnt because of Okur.

Okur is the 3rd offensive option behind Boozer(their low post threat) and Deron Williams. If Okur and Boozer both anchored in the post then it would be too crowded and help D would be close by making each player less effective. Yao and Duncan outscored him because they are flat out better and more integral to their teams offense.

Quote:
And that's why Dallas got knocked out of the first round, because Nowitzki was shooting Jays instead of working on the paint. After Dallas lost against Golden State Nowitzki said "We obviously needed an inside precense" ( That was a seven footer saying that) Dirk that was your job.

The Mavs already new from Dirk's past that he isnt a low post threat and he won an MVP so there is no point trying to change his game. They signed Dampier to man the middle and be their interior force and he is a pathetic waste of money. It was Dirk's fault for stepping up but you cant call him out for something that he never does so you cant expect him to do it.
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:18 PM   #60
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Default Re: 7-Footers shooting 3s

How about Steve francis playing point guard but acting like a shooting guard?
doesn't make his teammates better, cant shoot outside w/ consistency? how many rings has he won? how bout KG? he can shoot from the outside, great low post scorer, how many rings does he have?

In winning and not winning a championship, its not the mistake of 1 player, it takes a genius GM of combining players that will complement each other and have good chemistry. All players has there own strengths and weaknesses thats why you have teammates
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