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Old 08-08-2007, 02:17 AM   #46
BFRESH44
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

I've said recently that I was done responding to any and every Mathius post after he stated 'at this point I'd take Zydrunas Ilgauskas over Shaq'...

But hey..what the hell?

As a Cleveland Homer and seemingly anti Miami Heat ([I.E where Miami depended heavily on the refs in the Finals) you're obviously going to be clamoring the gloom and doom and pulling the "they're so old, they suck' and blah blah..That's exactly what you WANT to see pan out...

And me vice versa I guess due to me being a Heat homer...

But I'll address some of your parts of your post that can actually be addressed with facts instead of just back and forth pointless bias banter and debating...


Quote:
So he did have the surgeries. That's good I guess. But he really should have just gone and had it done last year. Now he'll most likely rush his recoup so he can make the start of the season. What he's trying to prove, I don't know. Nobody really gave the Heat much of a shot last year until Shaq took them on a run, but it's just not enough.

It won't be enough this year.


Only thing I'll address here(ignoring the retarded notions off that he ws trying 'prove' something other just trying to help the team)...Dwyane Wade is on schedule to be 100% ready to go at worst Mid November...So that's like 5-6 games missed at worst...




Quote:
Who is Miami going to give up to get Pietrus? Their cap situation is almost as bad as my Cavaliers. Their players are almost as untradeable as my cavaliers, due to age. And I won't to hear the answer to the question I posed on page 1. Just how long do you expect us to wait for Dorrell to have this "break out year" you guys have been talking about for the last 2 season?

Never said it was going to fruition on the Pietrus front, but local beatwriters of both teams have speculated of deals and rumors...Golden State apparently had interest in a sign and trade with James Posey as a veteran defender...

Posey met last month with Golden State president Chris Mullin and also had been linked to a potential sign-and-trade deal for restricted free agent Mickael Pietrus.

But because of luxury-tax implications, the Heat is no longer believed to be as willing to push Posey in such deals.

The Heat is interested in Pietrus and is considering trades that involve players under contract.

One deal discussed included the Warriors sending Peitrus and point guard Sarunas Jasikevicius to Miami for point guard Jason Williams.

But it was unclear Friday how willing the Heat is to unload the only experienced point guard in its system, or how much the Warriors are willing to spend $9 million next season on a backup for Baron Davis.



http://www.miamiherald.com/594/story/192707.html


Quote:
Antoine has always been more of a three, IMO, but whatever. If he can return to all star form, which is highly unlikely, or Jason Williams can stay healthy and return to all star form (both unlikely) the Heat have a shot. Otherwise

Or they can play at the level like they did during 2006 season. Which was fairly decent and playing to their roles. That was enough to help Miami raise the O'Brien.

Quote:
Shaq can't go 82 games and 28 playoff games. He just doesn't have it anymore. Not and play heavy minutes. The only chance you guys have is if he stays healthy until the end of the year, and you can use him for the playoffs. But good luck getting home court or any of that.

Mourning is even older than Shaq. And I'm not sure Mourning was EVER the best shot blocker in the league. Don't fool yourself. Right now I think Mutumbo's might be better, and he's older. Mourning was a beast in his time, but don't go calling him the best shot blocker in the league, when that has never been the case.

Stop clamoring this friggin 'old' 'oh they're old', got damn...Broken record..

I realize that Shaq is 35 and Alonzo Mourning is 37. But when they are healthy they are both effective players STILL.

Shaq STILL draws doubles teams in the post.

Zo STILL blocks alot of shots and his defensive prowess is STILL felt in spurts...

And Zo is not the best shotblocker in the league? 'Don't kid myself eh?

Try again...


Numero Uno at Block Shots per 48 mins last season: http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Blocks.jsp?league=00&season=22006&conf=OVERALL&pos ition=0&splitType=9&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=3


The Heat have question marks....But you're posing as if you believe they're going to be in the lottery.."They're done, they're done"

Please.

The Eastern Conference has parity written all ove itr(this past season only Boston on paper distinguished themselves with the newly acquired/formed star trio core).

....It's just comes down to getting the right bracket(In the Heat's case not seeing the Bulls early) and getting the matchups and having health in your factor(just like your Cavs who AREN'T that good of a team, they just had the right bracket)..


We'll see what happens come start of next season...

It's football season and I'm offically done talking about basketball for atleast 2months...

Last edited by BFRESH44 : 08-08-2007 at 02:32 AM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:08 AM   #47
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by insidehoops
I can't think of a single reason why the Heat would do better next season than they did last. Everyone that matters just got older, and they haven't added any difference-makers.

Hard to believe "insidehoops" could make a statement like that. Wade was clearly slow in the playoffs, he couldn't cut well either..he was at 65%, he'd had 2 surgeries since...Also, Shaq missed a ton of time..him and Wade hardly played together.... So if you really can't think of one reason why they might do better than last year...the answer is their stars having healthier seasons...also, is there anybody on any team in any league that doesn't have a player who "got older" in one season compared to the season before...people always say stuff like that, but unless there is something that can reverse age, every single player who matters is older now.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:40 AM   #48
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent_Zero
We could bring Etan in to give him some trouble. At this point in Shaq's career, I think it's possible.
Won't happen. A 40 yr old Shaq will still be able to give the Wizards a lot of problems.
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:20 AM   #49
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BFRESH44
As a Cleveland Homer and seemingly anti Miami Heat ([I.E where Miami depended heavily on the refs in the Finals) you're obviously going to be clamoring the gloom and doom and pulling the "they're so old, they suck' and blah blah..That's exactly what you WANT to see pan out...

And me vice versa I guess due to me being a Heat homer...

You're half right. I'm no homer. Ask any Cavs fan on this board, and they'll tell you I was harder on the Cavs than most non Cavs fans. Do a little research before you start throwing accusations at me, kid.

Second? I'm not anti-Heat. I'm anti-ignorance. You Heat fans said the same crap last year. Oh, but I AM anti-D-Whistle. Wade is a talented player and if he wants to legitimately score some points, fine. But this "drive to the hoop and throw it up over my shoulder because the ref is gonna call it for me, because I'm a superstar" is disgusting, and it isn't basketball.

Lastly? You are a homer. It's obvious. Everyone on the board is pointing out how old an ineffective the Heat were last year, EXCEPT the Heat fans.

Quote:
Never said it was going to fruition on the Pietrus front, but local beatwriters of both teams have speculated of deals and rumors...Golden State apparently had interest in a sign and trade with James Posey as a veteran defender...
http://www.miamiherald.com/594/story/192707.html

SO WHAT? Is that supposed to be a credible source? The local radio guy here in Cleveland, Tony Rizzo, (on ESPN radio no less), said the Cavs were talking with Minnesota for Kevin Garnett and we should send Damon Jones, Drew Gooden, and Larry Hughes to Minn. for Garnett.

Does that sound credible? Local "beatwriters" are homers and in a lot of cases, morons.

Quote:
Or they can play at the level like they did during 2006 season. Which was fairly decent and playing to their roles. That was enough to help Miami raise the O'Brien.

Except that won't be good enough when the combined team is 2 years older.

Quote:
Stop clamoring this friggin 'old' 'oh they're old', got damn...Broken record..

I realize that Shaq is 35 and Alonzo Mourning is 37. But when they are healthy they are both effective players STILL.

Shaq STILL draws doubles teams in the post.

Zo STILL blocks alot of shots and his defensive prowess is STILL felt in spurts...

And Zo is not the best shotblocker in the league? 'Don't kid myself eh?

Try again...

Numero Uno at Block Shots per 48 mins last season: http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Blocks.jsp?league=00&season=22006&conf=OVERALL&pos ition=0&splitType=9&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=3

Big deal. His rookie year, Harold Miner led your Heat with 21ppg per 40 minutes. See how well that worked out?

I can play with statistics too

The Heat were tired last year. Period. Everybody saw it. You're in denial.

Quote:
The Heat have question marks....But you're posing as if you believe they're going to be in the lottery.."They're done, they're done"

They're done being contenders, which is what the thread was about. "Can they still play at a high level?"

Quote:
....It's just comes down to getting the right bracket(In the Heat's case not seeing the Bulls early) and getting the matchups and having health in your factor(just like your Cavs who AREN'T that good of a team, they just had the right bracket)..

OOOhh. Nice dig. Except you're right, my Cavs AREN'T that good. But they finished better than your Heat. Now. Did that prove anything?

Quote:
We'll see what happens come start of next season...

It's football season and I'm offically done talking about basketball for atleast 2months...

Then get the F off this BASKETBALL board.

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Old 08-08-2007, 09:28 AM   #50
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Gezee
Their big concern is pretty much health. If both Shaq and Wade are healthy and not limping around out there, then they can win 55 games definately. Hopefully for them Williams stays healthy and Dorell improves, but Posey and Haslem are good consistent players. But they had no time to get any chemistry last year really. Shaq was out til the allstar break and Wade out soon after.

Shaq will still always draw double teams if not triples, Wade is a great explosive players, and they have some pretty good veteran guys again in Posey/JWill/Haslem. But as 2006 showed, in the postseason they can beat anyone when they are playing right. I don't think last year's exit had anything to do with Shaq breaking down as much as it did his teammates not making them pay after the were sending extra help on him in the 2nd halfs of games.

Shaq hasn't demanded triple teams since 2003. And it's pretty evident by now that he isn't the unstoppable force he was in year's past if Ben Wallace and a combination of Erica/Diop could be effective against him. It wasn't just a fact of the Heat not being healthy. The Heat that took the floor against the Bulls looked slow, out of sorts, and seemed to have no answers when Wade struggled. Yet they seem to think they can get it done with by returning that same team this year. I don't see the reasoning, but then again I'm not their coach with a history of health problems also. Yeah looks like a bright future for the Heat
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:15 AM   #51
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

DWade is going to get frustrated pretty soon and want out. The Heat were claimed last year to be built for the "now" not the future, its proving true now. Shaq has about 2 years max left. Half the teams bench should be in the NBA retirement home.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:24 AM   #52
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

I guess it's true what they say, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."

Sorry Heat fans, half the Miami Heat team are old dogs, if they can make some aquisitions before the season or during the season they have a shot. If not, I don't know what to tell ya.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:46 AM   #53
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Wow. The Heat hate is strong here. Define what "top notch" is?

They will be the #4 seed next year. Nobody in the Southeast can challenge them for that. Possibly the Wizards, but the Heat have been dominating them since Shaq rolled into town.

If, and this is a big IF, D-Wade is healed up properly, the Heat are a threat. If not, then they are in trouble, because they have to lean heavily on their young superstar. Shaq is older, slower and more injury prone, no doubt. But he's still Shaq. Someone said Shaq is old and over the hill and will "only average" 18/9. Boo hoo! Oh noes, it's so terrible that my 35-year old center only averages 18/9! Please. Shaq's still one of the most dominant (if not THE most dominant) centers in the league. I said CENTERS, not BIG MEN, before yall get on your TD/Dirk/KG kicks.

The sweep by the Bulls last year was largely in part because the #1 guy on the team was coming back from a bad injury. Like has been said before, the Heat's season this year relies heavily upon their health. But what team's doesn't? If T-Mac and/or Yao are hurt, the Rockets are nothing. If 'Melo and/or AI get hurt, the Nuggets are nothing. If Dirk gets hurt, the Mavs are . So on and so forth. People act like the Heat are the ONLY team that has to deal with injuries.

Will the Heat have a shot at the title? Nah, I doubt it, unless Shaq summons some of the old mystique, D-Wade has another MVP-like season, and the role players fill in the rest. I anticipate 2nd round or ECF exit for the Heat.

My East rankings:

1. Celtics (we'll see how it plays out, but on paper...wow.)
2. Pistons (still solid but not dominating like before)
3. Bulls (young and only getting better)
4. Heat (SE is a weak division)
5. Cavs (going to the Finals put a big target on their back...everybody is going to be gunning for them now, trying to shut them down like the Spurs did)
6. Nets (their big 3 are hot when healthy)
7. Wizards (very similar to the Nets)
8. Orlando (because who else would make it? The Knicks? )
Meh, on second thought, I'd probably put the Raptors at the 8 spot. They won a weak Atlantic, which got stronger this year. But Orlando and Rashard Lewis...ugh. I don't want them to make the playoffs so maybe the ownership will wake up and see how awful the 'Shard signing was. But that's a whole 'nother rant.

FLAME ON!


Last edited by Optimus Prime : 08-08-2007 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:02 AM   #54
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
Wow. The Heat hate is strong here. Define what "top notch" is?

Why does it have to be hate? The reality is, the Heat looked old last year. And to be honest, I thought their Finals victory was pretty tainted by the number of FT's Wade got.

And what "top notch" is, is a legitimate title contender. And they're not. You said it yourself in your post.

Quote:
If, and this is a big IF, D-Wade is healed up properly, the Heat are a threat. If not, then they are in trouble, because they have to lean heavily on their young superstar.

Maybe this is just me being bias, because I think the D-Whistle thing is real.

Now I'm not saying there's a fabricated conspiracy to make Dwayne Wade a winner, but I do think he gets not only an unfair number of calls, but just some plain superstar calls where there hasn't even been any contact, or a significant amount of contact. And sometimes he just isn't even trying to make a shot, just throw the ball at the rim and make contact.

But what I was going to say is this: With the referee scandal this year, how many foul calls is Dwayne Wade really going to get this season? Those guys are going to be heavily scrutinized all year (the refs).

This is Dwayne Wade's opportunity here. He needs to step it up and prove that he is a real superstar in this league, and not just some referee pet that can hit free throws.

Quote:
Will the Heat have a shot at the title? Nah, I doubt it, unless Shaq summons some of the old mystique, D-Wade has another MVP-like season, and the role players fill in the rest. I anticipate 2nd round or ECF exit for the Heat.

And that's what this thread is about. No, I don't see any way they are contenders this year.

Quote:
My East rankings:

1. Celtics (we'll see how it plays out, but on paper...wow.)
2. Pistons (still solid but not dominating like before)
3. Bulls (young and only getting better)
4. Heat (SE is a weak division)
5. Cavs (going to the Finals put a big target on their back...everybody is going to be gunning for them now, trying to shut them down like the Spurs did)
6. Nets (their big 3 are hot when healthy)
7. Wizards (very similar to the Nets)
8. Orlando (because who else would make it? The Knicks? )

I agree that the Cavs are overrated and that last years Finals was a fluke. Ferry is sitting pat this off season and not making any moves, including failing to get us a draft pick. But even with all that, I still think the Cavaliers are better than the Heat.

I also think you have Orlando extremely low on that list. I think the addition of Lewis is greater than the loss of Hill, and improves the team significantly. Beyond that all they lost was Darko, who was just a 20mpg guy. I think we see a better Magic team this year.

I really think the last 4 seeds are a toss up. I think the Heat could finish as low as 8th or as high as 5th. I think we could see Detroit slip this year.

If the Nets get Krstad back and get some help from an improved Josh Boone, or Sean Williams surprises (or both) they could end up surprising everyone.

Certainly the Wizards have a chance to do something special anytime you have three superstars like they do. Unfortunately the Heat have owned them in the past as already stated.

On paper, all these teams have guys who could emerge, but the Heat are old beyond Dorrell Wright. Also lets not forget that the Heat got worse, personnel wise. They lost Jason Kopono, and Gary Payton is rumored to be retiring. They also may lose Posey.

But to be fair, lets not forget that this is Aug. There's still basically 6 more months that some teams could make some moves.

Mathius
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Good post, as always Mathius. My interpretation of "top-notch" is one of the better teams in the league. A top-seeded playoff team. Which I think the Heat are. They do have an outside (very slim) shot of title contention if they capture lightning in a bottle. People made fun of them the year they won the Finals. All year long. They still won.

I don't buy into D-Whistle. It's known that superstars get a lot of calls. LeBron. Kobe. Etc. They all get them. I watched that entire series. The Mavs lost it. Never should you allow yourselves to be in a position where the refs can determine a game, let alone an entire 7 game series.

I agree though...5-8 in the East are a toss up. I just don't like Orlando's moves. It's my favorite city, but...ugh. Letting Shaq walk. Grant Hill's 7 years. Now 'Shard. Ugh ugh ugh. 'Shard was a second option on a bad team. Now he's the #1, max money option on a mediocre team? I don't see it.

I still think the Heat are Top 5 in the East. If Wade is back to old form and Shaq is serious about his conditioning, they are dangerous. Title contenders? Mmm...doubtful, but possible. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathius
Why does it have to be hate? The reality is, the Heat looked old last year. And to be honest, I thought their Finals victory was pretty tainted by the number of FT's Wade got.

And what "top notch" is, is a legitimate title contender. And they're not. You said it yourself in your post.



Maybe this is just me being bias, because I think the D-Whistle thing is real.

Now I'm not saying there's a fabricated conspiracy to make Dwayne Wade a winner, but I do think he gets not only an unfair number of calls, but just some plain superstar calls where there hasn't even been any contact, or a significant amount of contact. And sometimes he just isn't even trying to make a shot, just throw the ball at the rim and make contact.

But what I was going to say is this: With the referee scandal this year, how many foul calls is Dwayne Wade really going to get this season? Those guys are going to be heavily scrutinized all year (the refs).

This is Dwayne Wade's opportunity here. He needs to step it up and prove that he is a real superstar in this league, and not just some referee pet that can hit free throws.



And that's what this thread is about. No, I don't see any way they are contenders this year.



I agree that the Cavs are overrated and that last years Finals was a fluke. Ferry is sitting pat this off season and not making any moves, including failing to get us a draft pick. But even with all that, I still think the Cavaliers are better than the Heat.

I also think you have Orlando extremely low on that list. I think the addition of Lewis is greater than the loss of Hill, and improves the team significantly. Beyond that all they lost was Darko, who was just a 20mpg guy. I think we see a better Magic team this year.

I really think the last 4 seeds are a toss up. I think the Heat could finish as low as 8th or as high as 5th. I think we could see Detroit slip this year.

If the Nets get Krstad back and get some help from an improved Josh Boone, or Sean Williams surprises (or both) they could end up surprising everyone.

Certainly the Wizards have a chance to do something special anytime you have three superstars like they do. Unfortunately the Heat have owned them in the past as already stated.

On paper, all these teams have guys who could emerge, but the Heat are old beyond Dorrell Wright. Also lets not forget that the Heat got worse, personnel wise. They lost Jason Kopono, and Gary Payton is rumored to be retiring. They also may lose Posey.

But to be fair, lets not forget that this is Aug. There's still basically 6 more months that some teams could make some moves.

Mathius
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:40 AM   #56
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Oh, and how can we forget about the Smush Parker signing?

SMUSH PARKER PEOPLE!

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Old 08-08-2007, 03:18 PM   #57
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Default Re: Can the Miami Heat still be top notch at this stage?

Those D Wright highlights showed some serious playmaking ability.
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