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Old 08-08-2007, 02:30 PM   #31
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Here is one of the papers, from the American Society of Civil Engineers. I've quoted it for your amusement.

Quote:
he first aircraft struck WTC 1 roughly between the 94th and 98th floors, inflicting extensive damage to the north face of the tower in this area. At least five of the prefabricated, three-column sections that formed the exterior walls broke off in the area where the airplane fuselage and engines impacted, and parts of these sections were thrust inside the building envelope by the impact. Floors locally supported by these exterior wall sections appeared to partially collapse, losing their support along the exterior wall. In areas struck by the outer wing structures, the exterior columns fractured upon impact. Subsequent interpretation of photographic evidence will suggest that between 31 and 36 columns on the north facade were destroyed over portions of a four-story area and that a partial collapse of floors in this area appears to have occurred over a horizontal length of wall of approximating 65 ft; floors in other portions of the building will appear to have remained intact.

The second aircraft struck the eastern half of the south face of WTC 2 approximately between the 78th and 84th floors. Massive damage was inflicted on the south face of the building in the zone of impact. Within the central zone of impact, where the airplane fuselage and engines struck, six of the prefabricated, three-column sections that formed the exterior walls were broken loose of the structure, and some of the building elements were apparently thrust inside the building envelope. As in the impact of the plane on WTC 1, the floors supported by these exterior wall sections appear to have partially collapsed, losing their support along the exterior wall. In the areas impacted by the outer wing structures, the exterior steel columns were fractured on impact. Photographic evidence will subsequently suggest that between 27 and 32 columns along the south building face were destroyed over portions of a five-story range. Partial collapse of floors in this zone appears to have occurred over a horizontal length of wall of approximately 70 ft; floors in other portions of the building appear to have remained intact. It is probable that the columns in the southwest corner of the core also experienced some damage because they would have been in the direct path of the fuselage and port engine.

Subsequent interviews of people who were located on the 91st floor at the time the plane struck will reveal that a significant--but undefined--degree of damage was sustained by framing at the central core. The descriptions these people will provide of the damage they saw at the 91st floor suggest that there was relatively slight damage at the exterior wall of the building and progressively greater damage to the south and east. In particular, they observed extensive debris in the eastern portion of the central core, making it impossible for them to exit from the easternmost stairway. Their observations will suggest the possibility of the immediate partial collapse of framing in the tower's central core. They will also observe debris in the stairways located farther to the west, suggesting the possibility of some structural damage in the northwestern portion of the core framing.

Each of the fireballs expanded to its maximum diameter within about two seconds as the expelled fuel dispersed and flames traveled through the resulting fuel/air mixture. [fan explosion or detonation had occurred, this expansion would have taken place in microseconds. Preliminary calculations suggest that the resulting overpressures were less than 1 lb per square inch (psi). Although this pressure was sufficient to extensively break windows on the affected floors, it should not have resulted in significant structural damage.

The impacts from the aircraft have substantially degraded the towers' ability to withstand additional loading and have increased the susceptibility of the structures to fire-induced failure. It is likely that the force of the impact and the speed with which debris traveled through the structures compromised the sprayed-on fire protection of some of the steel members in the immediate areas of the impact. Additionally, some of the columns are now experiencing elevated stress due to the transfer of load from destroyed and damaged elements, and portions of the floor framing directly beneath the partially collapsed areas are carrying a substantial degree of additional weight from the resulting debris--in some cases, carrying greater weight than they were designed to resist.

The fires spread, and there are significant temperature variations throughout those areas where the fires are located, depending on the type and arrangement of combustible material being consumed and the availability of air supporting combustion. The advancing fires elevate the temperature within the tower. Future estimates will place it between 1,700° and 2,000 Fahrenheit--further stressing the structure. At the 80th floor of WTC 2--in the northeast corner, where office furnishings had been deposited by the rapid path of the plane--the fire burns at such a high temperature that a stream of molten metal begins to pour over the side of the tower. The heat output from these fires will later be estimated to have been comparable to that produced by a large nuclear generating station. Over a period of many minutes, this heat induces additional stresses on the damaged structural frames while simultaneously softening and weakening these frames.

Damage inflicted by the impacts and the rapid movement of debris through the impacted floors has most likely impaired the sprinkler and fire standpipe systems, thus preventing the effective operation of both the manual and automatic fire-suppression systems. However, even without this damage these systems would have rapidly depressurized as a result of the opening of numerous sprinkler heads initiated by the flash fires of jet fuel, rendering them ineffective.

As the fires rage throughout the upper reaches of both towers, the evacuation of the structures progresses as successfully as thought possible given the nature of these incidents. Several building features will be identified as key to the towers' ability to remain standing for as long as they did, enabling most of the buildings' occupants to escape. These include the robustness and redundancy of the steel framing system, the presence of adequate egress stairways that are well marked and lighted, and the rigorous emergency egress training programs provided for building tenants. It will ultimately be determined that 99 percent of the occupants of the floors below the areas of impact survived, largely because the stairways at these levels remained intact and passable. Tragically, those occupying floors within and above the impact areas cannot escape because the stairways in the impact areas have been destroyed. The high percentage of those able to escape may also be attributed--at least in part--to the fact that some physical changes and training programs were put in place following the 1993 bombing of WTC 1. These physical modifications included the placement of photoluminescent paint on the egress paths to assist occupants during egress and the installation of emergency lighting in the stairways. Additionally, some of the occupants of WTC 2 vacate that tower upon learning of the crash of the first plane into WTC 1. The world would later learn the devastating news that a number of survivors who had occupied WTC 2 reported that a message was broadcast over the building loudspeaker system indicating that WTC 2 was secure and that occupants should return to their offices. While many people did not heed this announcement, there were those who did. The decision would cost them their lives.

It is impossible to extinguish the infernos in both towers, and thus both structures are subjected to severe loading events.

As floor framing and supported slabs above and in afire area are heated, they expand. As a structure expands, it can develop additional, potentially large, secondary stresses in some elements. If the resulting stress state exceeds the capacity of some members or their connections, this can initiate a series of failures, potentially including buckling in columns or failure of floors.

As the temperature of floor slabs and support framing increases, these elements can lose rigidity and bow into catenary action. As catenary action progresses, horizontal framing elements and floor slabs become tensile elements, which can cause failure of end connections and allow supported floors to collapse onto the floors below. The presence of large amounts of debris on some floors of WTC 1 would have made them even more susceptible to this behavior. In addition to overloading the floors below, and potentially resulting in a pancake-type collapse of successive floors, local floor collapse would also immediately increase the laterally unsupported length of columns, permitting buckling to begin. The propensity of exterior columns to buckle would have been governed by the relatively weak bolted column splices between the vertically stacked prefabricated exterior wall units. This effect would be even more likely to occur in afire that involves several adjacent floor levels simultaneously because the columns could effectively lose lateral support over a length of several stories.

As the temperature of column steel increases and the modulus of elasticity degrades, the critical buckling strength of the columns will decrease, potentially initiating failure, even if lateral support is maintained. This effect is most likely to have been significant in the failure of the interior core columns.

At 9:59:04 A.M. EDT, WTC 2 begins to collapse. Future review of video footage of the event will suggest that the collapse was probably initiated by a partial collapse of the floor in the southeast corner of the building at approximately the 80th floor. This appears to have been followed rapidly by the collapse of the entire floor level along the east side, as evidenced by a line of dust seen blowing out of the side of the building. Once collapse is initiated, the impact of the rapidly accelerating mass of the top part of the structure effects a wide range of structural failures in the floors directly at and below the aircraft impact zone, in turn causing failure, of these floors. As additional floor plates fail, the mass associated with each of these floors joins that of the tower above the impact area, depositing still more destructive energy on the floors immediately below.

Large quantities of energy were stored in the buildings during their construction. For example, the construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 3 x 1012J of potential energy over the 1,360 ft height of the structure. Of this, approximately 7 x 1010J of potential energy was stored in the upper part of the structure--above the impact floors--relative to the lowest point of impact. Once collapse was initiated, this energy was rapidly released and converted into kinetic energy--in the form of the rapidly accelerating mass of the top part of the structure. The impact of this rapidly moving mass onto the lower structure caused a wide range of structural failures in the floors directly at and below the aircraft impact zone, in turn causing failure of these floors. As additional floor plates failed, the mass associated with each of these floors joined that of the tower above the impact area, unleashing further destructive energy on the floors immediately below. This initiated a chain of progressive failure until total collapse of the building ensued.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

there was this great site about 9/11 but i forgot about it... the most believable theory to me is they had bombs set up on floors of the twin towers...before the planes crashed the bomb erupted, therefore causing the twin towers to collapse not the planes.... they even showed a video of how the twin towers were built...theres was no way a plane wouldve destroy the whole building...i wish i still knew that site...damn

Last edited by MJ23 : 08-08-2007 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:31 PM   #33
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleNader
actually, had you bothered to read any of these studies (but they would probably go over your head given your lack of understanding of engineering), you would see that they already answered all of your questions.

Nice rebuttal though. Keep on trying to discredit academic work

actually I did waste alot of valuable time reading & viewing the simulations of things not in question (thanks for video though)

here is an example of a question that wasnt answered by your gluttony of worthless data....

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evide..._collapse2.mpg

^how does that building which was steel re-inforced fall down symmectrically onto itself? Fires? a generator in the basement? neither of those could do that... But I know what could, and I know what Larry Silverman and the fire fighters on the scene say happened, but nobody wants to admit it?

Where is your "academic" answer for that apple cider?
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
actually I did waste alot of valuable time reading & viewing the simulations of things not in question

No, you basically skimmed over them, seeing as though they showed how uncredible your conspiracy claims are, and then chose to ignore them.

Quote:
how does that building which was steel re-inforced fall down symmectrically onto itself? Fires? a generator in the basement? neither of those could do that... But I know what could, and I know what Larry Silverman and the fire fighters on the scene say happened, but nobody wants to admit it?

Where is your "academic" answer for that apple cider?

How does a building fall symmetrically down onto itself? Again, already explained. There is nothing complicated about this situation, when the top of the building loses its structural support and begins to fall down on top of itself. This is simple physics, really.

Oh and here's a link to a mathematical simulation done of the WTC impact and subsequent collapse. Tested and analyzed by civil engineers.
http://www.luxinzheng.net/publications/english_WTC.htm

Quote:
This simulation is based on the dynamic FEA software of LS-DYNA, which is developed by the Software Company of Livemore.

The WTC is topical tube-in-tube structure system, whose outer tube is dense-columns-deep-beams system. The width of the column is 476.25mm while the space between columns is just 558.8mm. The thickness of beams is 1219.2mm. In order to simplify the numerical model and decrease the degree of freedom, the outer dense-columns-deep-beams tube system and inner steel truss tube system are approached with shell elements. The thickness of shell elements is established with equivalent section method. Such approximate tube has the same stiffness of global bending and axial deformation as the real structure, while the local bending stiffness of structure elements is not consisted with the real condition. Since the primary deformation of tube-in-tube structure system is global bending and axial compression deformation, this approximate method should be feasible.

The material of inner and outer tube is set to be steel in the numerical model, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model in LS-DYNA. The density of steel is 7800Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 200GPa. The Poisson ratio is 0.27. The yield strength is set to be 310MPa, according to Steel A440 in U.S. The hardening modulus is set to be 2GPa, 1% of initial modulus. As the fracture of steel is considered in this analysis, the failure plastic deformation is discussed as parameters, whose value is set as 0.5%, 1% and 5% respectively

The material of floor is set to be RC material, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model, too. The density is 2500Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 30GPa. The Poisson ration is 0.2. The yield strength is 30MPa. The hardening modulus is 0. All the fracture plastic deformation is set to be the maximum compression strain of concrete, whose value is 0.38%.

Because of the weak fire resistance capacity of steel, the high temperature caused by the burning of aeroplane oil will soften the steel. So the material of steel under fire is needed to be setup, whose other parameter is the same to normal steel except that the Yang¡¯s modulus and strength is set as 1/20 of normal ones, to approach the performance of steel at 700¡æ.

As the collapse analysis is very complex, the Single Face Erosion contact module of LS-DYNA is used in this case. This contact model can search the contact face automatically to establish the contact relationship, and those complex border conditions such as penetration, erosion can be considered, too. The friction factor of material is set to be 0.25.

Since the LS-DYNA is explicit dynamic software, when applying the gravity load, the structure will vibrate for a short time. It is not consisted with the real conditions. So the whole computation should be divided into two stages. In the first stage, the towers have not been impacted. The gravity load is applied to the model and relatively large damp ratio is applied to the towers, whose value is 10%. Computing the model until the vertical vibration disappeared. Then, the second computation stage starts. In the second stage, some elements in the tower are ¡°killed¡± to approach the hole of airplane impact, and the material property of some survival elements is modified to simulate the fire influence, too.


*************************************************
The following conclusions are obtained from the simulation.

1) The reasons for the entire collapse of the towers are the structure elements¡¯ soften of fire and impact of the upper layers¡¯ collapse. From the numerical results, the towers does not collapse immediately after the impact. The north tower can go on standing. Likely, the south one dose not collapse, too, though there are some large deformations in it, which are caused by the asymmetric damage. This is consisted with the real situations.

2) Improving the structure fire resistance ability or control the fire influence area will avoid or delay the structure collapse, efficiently. We simulate the fire influence by adjusting the material property of elements. From the numerical results, even though the structure has been damaged seriously by the impact, if the influence area is smaller than 20%~25% of the survival section in the tower, the collapse still can be avoided. When more than 30~50% of the survival section near the impact zone fails, the collapse will start.

3) When the towers go into the collapse stage, the reason for the chain failure of un-impact layers is the impulse of upper collapsing floors. The impact force of upper floors is much larger than the heap load. And because there are a lot of bump and eject on the contact surface of collapsing floors and lower floors, the fragment of structure falls consecutively so that there is no chance to form a lot of heap load. So the heap load is not the critical reason for the collapse.

4) Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse.

Last edited by AppleNader : 08-08-2007 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

This paper explains your freefall conspiracy bullsh&t, though you probably are too lazy to read it.

http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:40 PM   #36
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Gezee
I generally believe it happened the way the media portrayed it. But Im not an idiot, and realize there's a chance it could've been a govt conspiracy.
HAHAHAHAHA

this made me laugh

you realize that for it to be a conspiracy there would have to be literally THOUSANDS of people in on it?

there is ZERO chance...

and our government is stupid...they couldn't even cover up the death of Pat Tillman...what makes you think they could cover up this?
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23
there was this great site about 9/11 but i forgot about it... the most believable theory to me is they had bombs set up on floors of the twin towers...before the planes crashed the bomb erupted, therefore causing the twin towers to collapse not the planes.... they even showed a video of how the twin towers were built...theres was no way a plane wouldve destroy the whole building...i wish i still knew that site...damn

How were you able to post this? Did they let you out of your straightjacket?
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
you are a complete bullsh*tter

How would the top of the building lose its structural support ? from some fires on the lower floors, a generator? stop playing with me

http://www.911research.com/wtc/evide..._collapse2.mpg

Look at it again and tell me that is a normal occurance without demolition

that owner of the building says they decided to pull the building himself

the fireman come out a few minutes before it comes and they say they're about to pull it, it coming down... The BBC reports the implosion of the building before it even happened... How so ?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bbc_wtc7_videos.html

How?
you are a complete moron who has been brain washed by some college kids that made a video...way to go on being stupid

....btw.....why has our government not planted WMDs in Iraq yet?
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:49 PM   #39
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
you are a complete bullsh*tter

How would the top of the building lose its structural support ? from some fires on the lower floors, a generator?

Wow, this may have been one of the stupidest statements I have ever seen you make. The top of the building loses its structural support from:

1. The gaping hole caused by the impact of the airplane. This not only takes out a significant portion of the load bearing aspect of the building, but it also:

2. Creates jet fuel fire that significantly weaken areas underneath the top of the building, thus resulting in:

The f&cking top of the building collapsing down.

Again, had you bothered to read any of the papers I have already shown to you, you would have known this.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Seismic data recorded at various sites in New York State on September 11,
2001, show two significant events, the first at about 9:59 a.m. (EDT) and the second, slightly more powerful, at about 10:28 a.m. (EDT). Traces of the seismic events may be viewed at www.ldeo.columbia.edu, and show a lot of “ringing” decay extending over 10 o r more seconds. Thus, cursory inspection of the traces suggests that the WTC collapse events were indeed “about 10 seconds” in duration. However, since the correct interpretation of the seismic data is critically important to the analysis of the collapse of
the two WTC towers, we will now consider the seismic data in more detail.
The first event, occurring at about 9:59, was the collapse of WTC 2, also called the south tower, (N.B. This was notthe first tower to be hit by an aircraft). The north tower, WTC 1, collapsed at about 10:28 and was responsible for the second seismic disturbance. The traces recorded at the Palisades station provide the best seismic data for
the events of September 11th, 2001.



this is from you... It doesnt answer the question I asked...

I asked you HOW DO OBJECTS PASS THRU OTHER OBJECTS AT ROUGHLY THE SAME SPEED OBJECTS PASS THRU AIR

all paper did was include the tremors that occured right before collapse in as part of the collapse to lengthen the time it took... Doesnt answer the question though because I am only concerned with the time period from the begining of the collapse till the end... from when the top begins to fall until the moment it hits the ground....that crap you posted doesnt address what I asked you
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:59 PM   #41
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Wow, this may have been one of the stupidest statements I have ever seen you make. The top of the building loses its structural support from:

1. The gaping hole caused by the impact of the airplane. This not only takes out a significant portion of the load bearing aspect of the building, but it also:

2. Creates jet fuel fire that significantly weaken areas underneath the top of the building, thus resulting in:

The f&cking top of the building collapsing down.

Again, had you bothered to read any of the papers I have already shown to you, you would have known this.
Today 02:48 PM


I love it... You dont even know what you are talking about Apple cider


No plane hit building 7 fool nothing hit it and it mysteriously collasped (like you see in the video if you bothered to watch) in the afternoon..

So, again I ask, How does that building fall down like that?
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:59 PM   #42
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
this is from you... It doesnt answer the question I asked...

I asked you HOW DO OBJECTS PASS THRU OTHER OBJECTS AT ROUGHLY THE SAME SPEED OBJECTS PASS THRU AIR

all paper did was include the tremors that occured right before collapse in as part of the collapse to lengthen the time it took... Doesnt answer the question though because I am only concerned with the time period from the begining of the collapse till the end... from when the top begins to fall until the moment it hits the ground....that crap you posted doesnt address what I asked you

so you posted a single intro paragraph and tried to use that to debunk me? Start Reading from pg.14, This just shows you really don't ready anything
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:00 PM   #43
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

And again, WTC7
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:01 PM   #44
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
you are a complete moron who has been brain washed by some college kids that made a video...way to go on being stupid

....btw.....why has our government not planted WMDs in Iraq yet?




Rasheed1,

Take a look at these:

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/...nge/index.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/1227842.html

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Last edited by Heilige : 08-08-2007 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:01 PM   #45
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Default Re: 9/11, what do you really think happend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasheed1
I love it... You dont even know what you are talking about Apple cider


No plane hit building 7 fool nothing hit it and it mysteriously collasped (like you see in the video if you bothered to watch) in the afternoon..

So, again I ask, How does that building fall down like that?

NO, I'm referring to your arguments that you people enjoy making, such as:

1. Fire couldn't have possibly collapsed the towers
2. No building in history has ever collapsed like that

All of these have already been thoroughly debunked
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