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Old 08-10-2007, 09:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLS
Read and understand. Again, a 3rd grader could probably understand this.

Most players don't DOMINATE when they are OVER 33 years old. Can some still play? Maybe. But they don't have anywhere near the impact they did in their mid 20's.

Sit down.
Smokee, when did you get the change of heart?
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

I do think that in 20 or 30 years time, there will be people who will say 'Bah, the start of the millenium is crap, they can't shoot for crap' but I'm sure there will still be a few people who are there to tell them otherwise.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:22 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Apparently this is a WEAK ERA of posting on ISH when asinine topics as the continued proclamation of "weak eras" keeps getting posted again and again. 50 years from now, players will be much faster, be able to jump higher than they do today.

You can't just say, Tyron Lue is much stronger and faster than Bob Cousy so he would dominate that era. STFU. If the players of the 60s had the same technology and training techniques as the guys today, they would perform much faster and stronger, like today's athletes and would still be GREAT against modern competition. Greatness isn't definited solely by athletic ability, otherwise James White would be the best in the L, Michael Vick would've won 7 Super Bowl rings by now and MJ would've been the greatest BASEBALL player to step on the diamond.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLS



Most flawed post in ISH history?


Dawg, shut up. You ain't know what u spittin
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
I do think that in 20 or 30 years time, there will be people who will say 'Bah, the start of the millenium is crap, they can't shoot for crap' but I'm sure there will still be a few people who are there to tell them otherwise.
Why would they say that? This is the best 3pt shooting era ever. Far and away.

What they'll say is that nobody in the 00s had any post moves and there were no good big men. And they'd be right.

Today's perimiter play is the best ever IMO. Every other team seems to have a star on the perimiter.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you about the era being weaker. But:

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeWiz15
Nobody alive has witnessed the Civil War but we still talk about it.
Don't compare it to huge events in world history, that's dumb - Dave Cowens' career and strengths and weaknesses as a player aren't documented like the Civil friggin' War.

Quote:
None of us has spoken to President Bush or probably ever seen him in person yet people are lining up to talk about how retarded he is.
You're right, his actions have only been broadcast on the most powerful of communication systems in painstaking detail. Another bad example.

Quote:
Do you realize that there is a legitimate branch of science devoted to things that are so small we cannot see them with the smallest microscope? Do you get that everything you have been told about the world, from dinosaurs to evolution to how the earth was formed to recorded history itself to astronomy is based not even on observation of an elite few but INDIRECT EVIDENCE AND CONJECTURE from an elite few?
Missed the point. If you didn't see Cowens play, you can still learn about him. You can learn things without seeing them. The problem is that you've never seen NOR read anything extensive on him, rendering you completely ignorant on the matter. Personally, when I discuss things, I like to have a f*cking clue what I'm talking about. I guess that's not a problem for you.

Quote:
Don't gimmie this ****, please. How many countless idiots on this board look at Oscar Robinson's stats without seeing one second of footage and put him into their top 5 all time and passionately defend their choice?
You're calling these guys idiots but you're doing literally the EXACT SAME THING.

Quote:
I can count on one hand how many people here watched basketball during Cowens era and I bet you aren't one of em either.

You don't need to see something to talk about it. So why don't we stop playing games and actually discuss something for a change.
Already covered this. If you didn't witness something, make an effort to find other sources to learn from and become informed on the matter. Otherwise, you're just another one of your proclaimed idiots talking out of his ass.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:34 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
Missed the point. If you didn't see Cowens play, you can still learn about him. You can learn things without seeing them. The problem is that you've never seen NOR read anything extensive on him,
How do you figure that?

You think Cowens name came to me in a dream? Of course I've read about him. Where did his name come from if I didn't? I don't know as much about him as, say, Jordan or Bird, but I do know he was considered a top 10 player in the 70s and would not be considered a top 10 player now. Therefore I can make the easy jump to: the 70s were the weakest era ever.

Then you add on to the fact that if you take all the great players from each era the 70s come up short.

Try it. Cowens was just a starting point for me. He's the crux of my argument but it goes quite farther than that. Dismiss my Cowens point all you want, but tell me the top 10 players of hte 70s are even close to the top 10 players of the 60s, 80s, or 90s.

BTW: I don't count any era before the 60s. Because back then only white people played... and the game was just so radically different... 60s is when the NBA begins in my mind.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

You literally just said that you didn't even remember his name. Uh-huh. I'm sure you knew a ton about him. I find it extremely hard to believe that you know enough about him to pass judgment on him.

And to be honest, I do agree that era was weaker. But your rationale for it just stinks. Keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you; it just doesn't make sense to me to act like you know more than you really do. You know a lot about the current game; I like reading your posts. But I don't think for one second you even know enough about Cowens to say what he was or wasn't.

Last edited by johndeeregreen : 08-10-2007 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:41 PM   #24
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
You literally just said that you didn't even remember his name. Uh-huh. I'm sure you knew a ton about him. I find it extremely hard to believe that you know enough about him to pass judgment on him.

And to be honest, I do agree that era was weaker. But your rationale for it just stinks.
I don't remember names. I remember content. sue me. what is wrong with my rationale?

1. The best players of the 70s are worse than the best players of every era.
2. The NBA was barely afloat in the 70s and needed Magic and Bird to save it in 1980.

You're going to have to seriously explain to me where the holes in my logic are. I don't see how the argument could be made any different actually.

So do you want to tell me about Dave Cowens? I'll tell you when you say something I didn't already know. And if you'd like to point out anything that's not true that I said go ahead.

PS: you know why it's so hard to read about 70s? Because nobody cares about the 70s. Because they sucked. Another piece of evidence.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:44 PM   #25
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

No, that's not where it's falling apart for me.

You've never seen a guy play and probably haven't read anything further than his Wikipedia page, and you're making judgment. It's not that easy. What you've read on Cowens probably came in the last twenty minutes. When a guy like dejordan comes in and drops knowledge about Cowens strengths, weaknesses, tendencies, then you're able to get a picture of what, and how good, he really was. Not from introductory reading.

Can you imagine someone looking at Arenas' stats, a highlight film, and reading a few pages on him, and actually thinking what he knows can stack up to what you know about him, through what you've seen and what you've undoubtedly extensively researched? No. That's a slap in the face to you and the player to try to pretend that you know, really, what you're talking about.

I'm just not a big fan of people weighing in when they really aren't sure what they're talking about. Sue me.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:55 PM   #26
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
No, that's not where it's falling apart for me.

You've never seen a guy play and probably haven't read anything further than his Wikipedia page, and you're making judgment. It's not that easy. What you've read on Cowens probably came in the last twenty minutes.

I'm just not a big fan of people weighing in when they really aren't sure what they're talking about. Sue me.
No. Here's what happened.

I open a topic that says there were no weak eras.

My brain enters timeline mode. I go from Mikan's Lakers to Wilt/Russell/Cousy/West to Kareem to Bird/Magic to Jordan to Shaq/Ewing/Hakeem/Robinson to Duncan/Shaq to the current era where everyone and his brother is a superstar SG.

Then my mind fills everything in... I think of all the second- and third-tier guys in each era.

Then I realize something... the 70s, Kareem's era, has nothing. I remember reading several articles, some from Slam, a couple ISH posts back in the day, and I remember how Cowens was a brutal hustler who won some titles and was considered one of the best players in the 70s. Contents of the article came back, name didn't. Then I think to myself... waittasecond. Would we have ever heard of this guy if he played in any other era? I automatically compare him to similar players of each era, and realize that this guy doesn't even have anything over Elton Brand, who could barely find a spot on an all star team now.

I've never even READ Cowens wikipedia page. Your suspicions come from not knowing how my mind works. I think abstractly not in terms of names and numbers.

Look at my original post:

Quote:
There was this era when this 6 foot 10 dude who averaged 18/12 on the Celtics was one of the best players in the game. That was a weak era.
How could I not be telling the truth? This post is clearly made off sound abstract logic. Just cause I can't remember the specific numbers and the guy's name doesn't mean it's invalid. And I clearly didn't have wikipedia open. if I did the abstract understanding of the eras would not be there and the specifics, like the name and the numbers, would.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

WEAK ERA?

Yeah there is no such thing as a weak era.


But there is a "less competitve" era which I believe in.

And there is also the "Weak 70s", which is also true, players in the 70s weren't that good, and I mean more Mid to Late 70s, Geewiz was talking about it, but he didn't really say why the 70s were weak, he just said "70s suck".


First let me talk about the less competitive eras. Those are all the Eras from before. Those are the Eras where basketball was played less. There is no doubt that people play more basketball now than they did in the 60s. What does that mean? Well since less played it back then, there was less competition back then for players. I am not talking athetic ability wise, or knowledge wise, I am just saying, less played basketball back then, so the league's weren't nearly as competitive.

That's a knock off for all players playing in the ERAs before. Not a big one, but its a knock off. And there is NO DOUBT that less played back then, meaning less competitive. But once again, it's not a big knock off.









As for the 70s. It is 100% correct that the 70s was a "weak" era. Players like Cowen, Unseld, and Hayes shouldn't get overrated because they played well in the 70s, the 70s really was a weak era period.

Here's why, first of all, the ABA peaked in the 70s. It was almot as talented as the NBA. Now if you have the ABA peaking, and you have players like Cowens domiating the league with 20/15, that says something. It's like playing in the NBA today with only the Western Conference. And also adding a bunch of scrubs to fill in the Eastern Confrence squads, and spliting up the leader's of the Western Confrence teams as well to fill the Eastern Confrence Teams. What you're going to get is

1. Weaker Defenses. Meaning better stats for players.
2. Weaker teammates, also meaning better stats for players.
3. Easier path to MVP, Championship, and everything else.



So all in the 70s, since the ABA was peaking around then, they all really do get a knock off, and the 70s really was a weak era. And once again, basketball overall back then wasn't as popular, so there was less competition and that also added to the weakness of the eras.


But once again, it's not a HUGE knock off. But especially in the 50s, now that's when basketball was very unpopular, and some huge knocks there. But overall, I still give tons of respect to the oldern players. Wilt is Top 3 All-Time, Russell Top 6, Big O, Top 10, and so on.

But it's just a edge present players have, the competition is just tougher. And lastly, 70s, if you just look at accomplisments and stats in that Era, you really are overrating...
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

I hope you understand why I would be extremely leery of somebody professing to know about a player when they need to look up his name.

Quote:
Then I realize something... the 70s, Kareem's era, has nothing. I remember reading several articles, some from Slam, a couple ISH posts back in the day, and I remember how Cowens was a brutal hustler who won some titles and was considered one of the best players in the 70s. Contents of the article came back, name didn't.
But this isn't even close to enough knowledge to say what Dave Cowens was and wasn't as a basketball player. I absolutely GUARANTEE that if someone had this bare-bones knowledge on Arenas and attempted to try and form an opinion on him, you would be all over him.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Last edited by johndeeregreen : 08-10-2007 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geeWiz15
No. Here's what happened.

I open a topic that says there were no weak eras.

My brain enters timeline mode. I go from Mikan's Lakers to Wilt/Russell/Cousy/West to Kareem to Bird/Magic to Jordan to Shaq/Ewing/Hakeem/Robinson to Duncan/Shaq to the current era where everyone and his brother is a superstar SG.

Then my mind fills everything in... I think of all the second- and third-tier guys in each era.

Then I realize something... the 70s, Kareem's era, has nothing. I remember reading several articles, some from Slam, a couple ISH posts back in the day, and I remember how Cowens was a brutal hustler who won some titles and was considered one of the best players in the 70s. Contents of the article came back, name didn't. Then I think to myself... waittasecond. Would we have ever heard of this guy if he played in any other era? I automatically compare him to similar players of each era, and realize that this guy doesn't even have anything over Elton Brand, who could barely find a spot on an all star team now.

I've never even READ Cowens wikipedia page. Your suspicions come from not knowing how my mind works. I think abstractly not in terms of names and numbers.

Look at my original post:


How could I not be telling the truth? This post is clearly made off sound abstract logic. Just cause I can't remember the specific numbers and the guy's name doesn't mean it's invalid. And I clearly didn't have wikipedia open. if I did the abstract understanding of the eras would not be there and the specifics, like the name and the numbers, would.


Geewiz, you are correct that the 70s wasn't that strong at all. But if only you could explain WHY that was. Why player like Cowens were able to "look" so good. It's something called the ABA...The ABA peaked in the 70s, taking a lot of talent away from the NBA, and leading players like Cowens to "look" good.
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Old 08-10-2007, 10:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: Ok. Weak Eras do not exist.

Quote:
I hope you understand why I would be extremely leery of somebody professing to know about a player when they need to look up his name.
yeah.

But here's the thing. I don't remember names. If this were real life, or even real-time, and not a message board, with the way you think I would be the dumbest guy ever. Cause In person I'm always saying "whats his name on the Celtics, the 25ppg SF" or "that sixth man guy on the Suns, the Brazilian" and then deliver a gem of insight....... if you got stuck at the name, or lack thereof, you'd think I was a moron. I just don't think in terms of names. They're just labels. Almost every day I make 20 or more posts I have to look up at least one name for guys who play *now.*

In fact the other day it occurred to me. Would our society really be any worse if we didn't have names? What do names add to anything other than the ability to talk behind peoples backs? If I didn't know any of my friends names I don't think my life would change at all.
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