Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-13-2007, 05:06 PM   #46
raid09
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,445
raid09 has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiMavericks21
Michael Jordan, despite being the best player in NBA history, DID HAVE WEAKNESSES IN THIS SO CALLED SKILL SET YOU SPEAK OF. As a SHOOTING GUARD, you are typically supposed to be a great shooter, in all aspects. Yet in his long, illustrious career, Jordan only shot 33% from the 3-point line. Only 2 years (realistically 1 b/c the year he shot 50% he only played 17 games) in his career did he shoot 40% or better from 3. Sorry buddy, got ya there. No consistent 3-point shot is a weakness for a SG.

The main point is, Dirk does not have a low-post game. Duncan doesn't have a great outside game(besides the bank shot), neither does Wade. You don't hear people saying that these guys need to fix the weakness in their game to win titles. Players have their identities, they are who they are. Dirk is a phenom, a 7 foot player who plays like a 2. It shouldn't be implied that because he is 7 foot he has to be a low-post scorer, it simply isn't his game, he's not strong enough to bang down low and as far as I'm concerned, it's good that he doesn't because if you look at his statistics, HOW MANY GAMES HAS DIRK MISSED IN HIS CAREER? Not taking all those bumps that many PF's do has kept him pretty healthy.

It really is foolish to imply that the LEAGUE MVP has to transform into something he's not in order to win a title for the Mavericks. NO, my friend, I'm sorry, he does not. The Dallas Mavericks might need to go out and acquire ANOTHER PLAYER WHO HAS A LOW-POST GAME, but you are just plain wrong to imply that Dirk needs to be a low-post scorer for Dallas to win a title.

A couple things.

1. People do rip on Wade for not having an outside shot. Wade v. Kobe arguments, what do you hear? "Kobe can score from anywhere on the court, Wade is midrange in." Same with LeBron, most people agree he needs to work on his midrange game and he would be almost unstoppable if he developed it. This will only be amplified for Dirk, however unfair it is, it's still expected. Sticking with these examples... Over the past to seasons Wade has won a championship, while LeBron almost single-handedly took a team to the finals. Wade did what he was supposed to do, while LeBron overachieved this year in the postseason. Dirk? Dirk gave away the title in 06, and was on the losing end of the biggest upset in NBA history. Obviously he is going to be under more speculation than the other superstars in this league, especially the ones doing what is expected of them or more. Is it fair? No, but that's what you must expect if you are going to be the franchise player. People expected LeBron to make the playoffs, and get ECF, people didn't expect him to get to the finals. Now, if LeBron hadn't made the playoffs this year (my analogy to the Mav-GS upset)? People would be ragging on him too.

Next: many stars would kill to have Dirk's supporting cast. Terry? Howard? Harris? ****, even Dampier and Diop. Ship 'em on over please.

And finally, Tim Duncan? Really? You say "Duncan doesn't have a great outside game(besides the bank shot)" as an argument FOR Dirk? DUNCAN HAS 4 TITLES UNDER HIS BELT. DUNCAN STEPS UP IN THE POST SEASON. Duncan's method has been winning titles for years. Even before Duncan, big men in the post have been winning titles for years. Wilt, Bill, Kareem, Hakeem, etc. You can't really bring Duncan's lack of an outside shot as an argument for Dirk. Duncan's methods have earned him top-10 status of all time. He has won. Period.

And my last point. You Maverick fans are acting like we are saying "Dirk should stay in the post, never leave, and play exactly like Duncan or Shaq." Are you ****ing kidding? IF DIRK ADDED A POST GAME INTO HIS ARSENAL HE WOULD BE ALMOST UNTOUCHABLE OFFENSIVELY. Notice: into his arsenal. Noone is saying he should change his game completely or stop taking the smooth fade. However, when he is scared to back down Monta freaking Ellis? Not only would a post game give him a goto move when his shots aren't falling, but the mismatches would be much more severe. If Dirk developed a post game in addition to his current offensive skills, I am confident the Mavericks WOULD win a championship and Dirk WOULD be almost unstoppable on offense.
raid09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 05:46 PM   #47
IGOTGAME
NBA All-star
 
IGOTGAME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 9,649
IGOTGAME has a near all-star reputation hereIGOTGAME has a near all-star reputation hereIGOTGAME has a near all-star reputation hereIGOTGAME has a near all-star reputation hereIGOTGAME has a near all-star reputation hereIGOTGAME has a near all-star reputation here
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiMavericks21
Michael Jordan, despite being the best player in NBA history, DID HAVE WEAKNESSES IN THIS SO CALLED SKILL SET YOU SPEAK OF. As a SHOOTING GUARD, you are typically supposed to be a great shooter, in all aspects. Yet in his long, illustrious career, Jordan only shot 33% from the 3-point line. Only 2 years (realistically 1 b/c the year he shot 50% he only played 17 games) in his career did he shoot 40% or better from 3. Sorry buddy, got ya there. No consistent 3-point shot is a weakness for a SG.

The main point is, Dirk does not have a low-post game. Duncan doesn't have a great outside game(besides the bank shot), neither does Wade. You don't hear people saying that these guys need to fix the weakness in their game to win titles. Players have their identities, they are who they are. Dirk is a phenom, a 7 foot player who plays like a 2. It shouldn't be implied that because he is 7 foot he has to be a low-post scorer, it simply isn't his game, he's not strong enough to bang down low and as far as I'm concerned, it's good that he doesn't because if you look at his statistics, HOW MANY GAMES HAS DIRK MISSED IN HIS CAREER? Not taking all those bumps that many PF's do has kept him pretty healthy.

It really is foolish to imply that the LEAGUE MVP has to transform into something he's not in order to win a title for the Mavericks. NO, my friend, I'm sorry, he does not. The Dallas Mavericks might need to go out and acquire ANOTHER PLAYER WHO HAS A LOW-POST GAME, but you are just plain wrong to imply that Dirk needs to be a low-post scorer for Dallas to win a title.

Im not wrong..Im not asking him to be a "low post scorer" I just want the seven footer to be able to post up pgs and sgs...Thats it...

And MVP or not he isnt a top 5 player in the league
IGOTGAME is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 10:09 PM   #48
FabCasablancas
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,803
FabCasablancas has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Dirk wasnt tripled constantly and that is a simple verifiable fact. Not him and not any other player in the history of basketball that ive seen with the exception of Wilt in the NCAA title game. Every even reasonably unbiased fan knows it and the majority of Mavs fans probably do too. Nothing but a massive exaggeration of the defense to excuse poor play.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=YrKa8VMiRDo

One minute in. Total single coverage he drives to the FT line and shoots a pullup over the swingman defending him and another who was there before he drove into him.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F_vZBrV9T...elated&search=

2:17. Totally single covered(not even well covered) airball.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=wm8T7FSTmO8

Totally single covered in there.

That constant triple **** is just made up inthe minds of Dirk fans. Was he defended well? Most of the time yes. Was he getting some ungoly number of on the ball triples to keep him from possibly playing well? Hell no. He got one on one coverage a good bit. I doubt I happened to find the only 3-4 times in the series in the only 4 files I looked at(in one Dirk didnt shoot at all). The mere fact I could find any that easy is proof enough he wasnt always tripled or even doubled. He mostly got guarded like superstars usually do. One on one with some help D ready. Were there some doubles? Of course. Hes an offense based superstar. Kobe got doubled vs the Suns. bron got doubled vs the Pistons. Every play? Hell no. Basically nobody is. But superstars getting doubles isnt new or unusual. Its playoff basketball.


As for Damp and Diop not even being being "remotely decent legitimate bigs"....


Dampier was the 4th most productive center in the NBA before he came tothe Mavs behind Shaq, Amare, and Miller. He put up 12/12 for the year with 25 games of 15 or more points. In the last month with GS alone he had games of 26/18, 16/17, 18/13, 19 and 21, and 16 and 25. Wasnt even his best stretch. The month before he got(in consecutive games):

14 and 16
22 and 12
14 and 18
24 and 19
16 and 12

Here are some of his best games in january:

23 and 22
18 and 11
18 and 24
17 and 16
18 and 20
21 and 19

He averaged 13 and 13 after the all star break. And he is not entirely unskilled:

http://www.gswpete.com/highlights/53.../ed_jumper.avi

Just go here and search for the word "Damp"

http://www.gswpete.com/archive.html

He made a lot of impressive offensive and defensive plays before he got to Dallas.

When guys like Terry(already a 19/7 player in Atlanta) go to the Mavs and improve im told Dirk makes them better but when they go and get worse im told they were not good to begin with.


Dampier was never great but he was sure as hell remotely decent. Im not saying Dirk made him worse(thats as foolish as him making anyone better). Im just saying the guy has shown more in his career than hes done on the Mavs.

I have seen some obtuse posts in my time but this one takes the cake.. I was speaking in relative terms.. Dirk was tripled as much as anyone.. he was guarded as agressviely as any great player who has no supporting cast.. youa re simply creating strawe men so you cna knock them over..

As foir damp being the fourth most productive center.. he was on a running team and rebounds well.. but check out his playoff production.. he put up the numbers of a backup center in the playoffs.

But it is true.. he could be used much better than he is by Avery.. that's true of evry Mavs player.. which is why Paul Wesphal was brought in to take care of the offense for Avery.

Last edited by FabCasablancas : 08-13-2007 at 10:23 PM.
FabCasablancas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 10:19 PM   #49
FabCasablancas
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,803
FabCasablancas has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
Good post by Kblaze...wish I could watch the videos, but I'm at work.

Mavs' fans saying Dirk's supporting cast sucks? The majority of teams in the NBA would kill to have the Mavs' roster. It wasn't the Mavs' roster that couldn't post up Stephen Jackson or shot 38%...

Which is why journalists were saying the Mavs wouldn't make the playoffs after Nash left.. riiiiiiiiiight.. When Nash left people said the Mavs would be one of the worst playoff teams in the Western Conference and that team was more talented than this current team.. every player on the Mavs other than Dirk is a cast off from another team.. Josh dropped to the the Mavs at the 28th pick.. Harris was a pick the Wizards didn't even want..Damp and Diop were cast offs from teams the leagues worst teams.. Terry came from the Atlanta Hawks in a trade for Antoine Walker! Stack was ejected from the Wizards.. this is the Motley-est of crews..
FabCasablancas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 10:56 PM   #50
Kblaze8855
Titles are overrated
 
Kblaze8855's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 13,391
Kblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginableKblaze8855 is the Michael Jordan of posters with the best reputation imaginable
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
I have seen some obtuse posts in my time but this one takes the cake.. I was speaking in relative terms.. Dirk was tripled as much as anyone.. he was guarded as agressviely as any great player who has no supporting cast..

As much as anyone? By which you mean nearly not at all?

Quote:
youa re simply creating strawe men so you cna knock them over..

You have been claiming that constant triple **** for months. I dont have to create anything.

Quote:
As foir damp being the fourth most productive center.. he was on a running team and rebounds well.. but check out his playoff production.. he put up the numbers of a backup center in the playoffs.

The Warriors didnt make the playoffs. If you assume on the Mavs...of course he puts up backup numbers in the playoffs. half the time hes actually a backup.

Quote:
But it is true.. he could be used much better than he is by Avery.. that's true of evry Mavs player.. which is why Paul Wesphal was brought in to take care of the offense for Avery.

Yes...coach did everything. Everyone on the Mavs but dirk did everything bad that happened.

Quote:
Which is why journalists were saying the Mavs wouldn't make the playoffs after Nash left.. riiiiiiiiiight..

Like 2 people on earth said it and the only reason anyone knows is the long list of people here calling them stupid for it. basketball world in general never assumed they would be bad. ISH sure as hell didnt.
Kblaze8855 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 11:06 PM   #51
G-train
3-time NBA All-Star
 
G-train's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,958
G-train has an incredible reputation hereG-train has an incredible reputation hereG-train has an incredible reputation hereG-train has an incredible reputation hereG-train has an incredible reputation hereG-train has an incredible reputation hereG-train has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by FabCasablancas
Which is why journalists were saying the Mavs wouldn't make the playoffs after Nash left.. riiiiiiiiiight.. When Nash left people said the Mavs would be one of the worst playoff teams in the Western Conference and that team was more talented than this current team.. every player on the Mavs other than Dirk is a cast off from another team.. Josh dropped to the the Mavs at the 28th pick.. Harris was a pick the Wizards didn't even want..Damp and Diop were cast offs from teams the leagues worst teams.. Terry came from the Atlanta Hawks in a trade for Antoine Walker! Stack was ejected from the Wizards.. this is the Motley-est of crews..

Fans didnt see Josh Howard developing to an allstar - the biggest reason other than Dirk that the mavs are a great squad.
Devin Harris also developed quite well.
Damp and Diop are a solid combination - Diop was a flop at cavs but became a decent 5 at the mavs.
Stack has always been a great scorer.
And terry was a great player at the hawks.

They are a great ball club.
Just could get it together against the warriors.

Last edited by G-train : 08-13-2007 at 11:10 PM.
G-train is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 11:38 PM   #52
Rebel INS
I hit open 5-footers
 
Rebel INS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: L.A.
Posts: 243
Rebel INS has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

This guy is so riduculous in spreading the blame around to everyone but Dirk. Everyone on this board can agree taht the mavs have an above average coach and above average role players (above average is probably understating how good the coach and role players are). Dirk simply didn't make the shots that other superstars make.

Does anyone else on this board agree with this guy's severely distorted point of view?
Rebel INS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2007, 11:56 PM   #53
DatZNasty
NBA rookie of the year
 
DatZNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,845
DatZNasty is considered somewhat coolDatZNasty is considered somewhat coolDatZNasty is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Fab, Dirk shot 38%
DatZNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 12:04 AM   #54
Carbine
Facts Are Misleading
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: A Court Near You
Posts: 7,942
Carbine has decent reputationCarbine has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
he was guarded as agressviely as any great player who has no supporting cast

This guy continuely insists that Dirk' supporting cast is somehow bad.

It's not. No team that wins 65+ games in a tough western conference has a bad, or even average supporting cast. Dirk alone isn't winning 65+ games by himself. And if Avery really is as bad as you say, then the supporting cast must be that much better to mkae up for the lack of coaching.

All in all, your arguments and statements fail to add up.
Carbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 04:27 AM   #55
Admiral
Good High School Starter
 
Admiral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: the effing desert
Posts: 909
Admiral has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
I never did get why people never rip on Wallace for his pathetic offensive game.

Dampier was not in the series b/c he had a torn muscle in his arm and couldnt secure the ball on rebounds. If you noticed, that last 10 or some game he played in all the sudden every ball he touched was a tip out and not a board. Diop is disgusting to watch on offense. I thought he was supposed to work on that in Summer L play but all I saw was him trying to shoot 18 foot jumpers.


But let the ****** hate. Dirk has improved something about his game EVERY year in the L. I fully expect his low post game to improve. You are right that he already has the high post and now teams try to take that away from him. He must adapt.

NOw for the idiots who continue to lay the playoff flame out at his feet, YES, he is their best player and had a crap series. However, you must also admit that GS was in fact throwing double and triples at Dirk and were doing a very good job keeping him from getting the ball where he likes it. THAT is where Dirks teammates failed miserably. If Dirk is even just getting doubled that means somebody should be free to do some damage. However Terry was a complete void, Harris STILL has not learned to pick and choose went o play tight D and was in constant foul trouble, GS laughed at the notion of guarding Dirk and Stack hurt the team as much as he helped it with his wildly inconsistent play. Howard for as well as he shot was a black hole on offense and it seemed GS was content to guard Dirk and hope that JHo couldnt carry the team. Guess what? He couldnt.


i agree with all that, even i have ripped on him unnecessarily, but i just have an anti mavs bias cause i'm a kings fan....

my only disagreement is that wallace and rodman were there specifically for defense, so you can't really knock them as much as one might like to for not having an offensive game just my two cents
Admiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 04:46 AM   #56
FabCasablancas
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,803
FabCasablancas has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
This guy continuely insists that Dirk' supporting cast is somehow bad.

It's not. No team that wins 65+ games in a tough western conference has a bad, or even average supporting cast. Dirk alone isn't winning 65+ games by himself. And if Avery really is as bad as you say, then the supporting cast must be that much better to mkae up for the lack of coaching.

All in all, your arguments and statements fail to add up.

No, it means that Dirk's impact is that great. But in the playoffs you can take that advantage away and take Dirk out of the game.. which leaves the MAvs with nothing.. at least with Avery as coach.

Notice the irony of your post.. it's apparently ok to say the Mavs suck because one player -- Dirk -- sucks.. but to claim that the Mavs suck because the supporting cast is bad is supposedly ridiculous.. even though the evidence supports that Dirk is the onyl good thing aobut that team when you watch how the Warriors defended the Mavs.. took Dirk out of the game with double and triple teams.. and the Mavs stunk coincidentally.

This compeltely contradicst the claims that Dirk sucks.. because if he did there would be no need to guard him so agressively..

Now you can deny all the double and triple teams.. but that makes you a liar. Just like the people that claimed Ryan Bowen shut Dirk down in the Houston series.. or the people that said Haslem shut Dirk down in the Miami series. Complete BS.
FabCasablancas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 04:50 AM   #57
FabCasablancas
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,803
FabCasablancas has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel INS
This guy is so riduculous in spreading the blame around to everyone but Dirk. Everyone on this board can agree taht the mavs have an above average coach and above average role players (above average is probably understating how good the coach and role players are). Dirk simply didn't make the shots that other superstars make.

Does anyone else on this board agree with this guy's severely distorted point of view?


Yet the Mavs have had no other all-stars on the team the past few seasons. they had to publicly protest to get Josh Howard on the All-star team.. and the only reaosn he was there was because of Dirk..

If the Mavs are so good then why couldn't they score when Dirk was being guarded so agressively? Why do they need Dirk to play liek the MVP to get by the GSW? haha It amkes no sesne what-so-ever.

The truly funny part though is how Kobe is considered the best player in the league inspite of having a better frontline around him and the best coach in NBA history yet he stinks in the playoffs as bad or worse than Dirk...
FabCasablancas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 04:56 AM   #58
FabCasablancas
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,803
FabCasablancas has decent reputation
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

"""Fans didnt see Josh Howard developing to an allstar - the biggest reason other than Dirk that the mavs are a great squad.
Devin Harris also developed quite well.
Damp and Diop are a solid combination - Diop was a flop at cavs but became a decent 5 at the mavs.
Stack has always been a great scorer.
And terry was a great player at the hawks.

They are a great ball club.
Just could get it together against the warriors."""

Dirk has the weakest frontline in the league around him.. all the players you list do the same thing Dirk does.. score.. even if they are good(which they aren't).. they are completely redundant... but they do it much worse than Dirk.. which is why it pays to take the ball out of Dirk's hands and let them shoot rather than Dirk.. which is why Dirk has no way to play his game because the Mavs are so poorly constructed.

Dirk makes all these guys better but none of them make Dirk better. That's the bottom line.
FabCasablancas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2007, 06:54 AM   #59
Silverbullit
Good college starter
 
Silverbullit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,245
Silverbullit is a pretty well-respected posterSilverbullit is a pretty well-respected posterSilverbullit is a pretty well-respected posterSilverbullit is a pretty well-respected poster
Default Re: Dirk Nowitzki explored the meaning of life

It's just another "The Mavericks won because of their great supporting cast, the Mavericks lost because Dirk sucked" thread.

But it's okay, wait for next year, the ring will shine bright on Dirk's sucking hand!

Of course because of the great supporting cast, deepest bunch in the league and so on....

Another scenario, Dirk misses 40 games due to injury and the Mavericks miss the playoffs. Oh yeah, Dirk suckes again!


One-way-ticket Howard would never be an allstar without Dirk!
Silverbullit is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:43 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy