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Old 08-12-2007, 01:35 AM   #16
Loki
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzle-2k7
bullshlt. Jordan is GOAT but Kobe right now owns young Jordan.

Yeah, okay. Whatever you say, bud. Jordan from '87-'90 was significantly more dominant than Kobe's ever been. Wisen up.
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Old 08-12-2007, 01:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
I'm saying that 1989 and prior, Jordan was better than Kobe's ever been, including right now.


thats what you said, Loki.

as in, jordan straight out of NC was better then Kobe right now. as in jordan 1st, 2nd,3rd year was better then Kobe right now, which is wrong.

watch your words and I wont have to correct you

Last edited by Dizzle-2k7 : 08-12-2007 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 08-12-2007, 01:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzle-2k7
thats what you said, Loki.

as in, jordan straight out of NC was better then Kobe right now. as in jordan 1st, 2nd,3rd year was better then Kobe right now, which is wrong.

watch your words and I wont have to correct you

Yes, that's what I said. 1987-1989 Jordan was better than Kobe has even been, including right now. Evidence forthcoming. Not straight out of NC -- he was a rookie, and very raw.
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Old 08-12-2007, 01:53 AM   #19
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Now be quiet, Drizzle:


Jordan's numbers between 1987-1989 (3 seasons):

34.9 pts
6.2 reb
6.2 ast
3.0 stl
1.3 blk
51.8% FG (4% above league average)

34.7 EFF (two 1st and one 3rd place finish; 10.5 EFF above league average)

30.9 PER (three 1st place finishes; 9.0 PER above 10th place PER finisher in that span)

121 ORtg (13 above league average)

102 DRtg (6 below league average)

Net O/DRtg: +19 above league average



Kobe:

31.5 pts
5.6 reb
5.3 ast
1.5 stl
.6 blk
44.9% FG (.3% below league average during that span)

26.6 EFF (one 10th, one 5th, and one 2nd place finish; 5.1 EFF above league average)

25.8 PER (one 8th, one 3rd, and one 5th place finish; an average of 2.1 PER above 10th place PER finisher in that span)

113 ORtg (6 above league average)

108 DRtg (2 above league average; N.B. - this is bad)

Net O/DRtg: +4 above league average



Now what were you saying again?
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Old 08-12-2007, 01:59 AM   #20
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Kobe's prime(2002-03-present):


29.7 PPG/5.9 RPG/5.4 APG/1.7 SPG/0.6 BPG- 44.7 FG%, 34.8 3 PT %, 84.6 FT%. Team record of 227-183(.554)


Jordan(1988-89 and prior):


31.1 PPG/5.8 RPG/5.5 APG/2.7 SPG/1.2 BPG- 50.5 FG%, 18.6 3 PT%, 84.7 FT%. Team record of 205-205(.500)
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:02 AM   #21
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Chocolate
Kobe's prime(2002-03-present):


29.7 PPG/5.9 RPG/5.4 APG/1.7 SPG/0.6 BPG- 44.7 FG%, 34.8 3 PT %, 84.6 FT%. Team record of 227-183(.554)


Jordan(1988-89 and prior):


31.1 PPG/5.8 RPG/5.5 APG/2.7 SPG/1.2 BPG- 50.5 FG%, 18.6 3 PT%, 84.7 FT%. Team record of 205-205(.500)

Your numbers for Jordan are incorrect. Very incorrect. My post above yours contains the actual 1987-1989 numbers.

Last edited by Loki : 08-12-2007 at 02:09 AM.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:10 AM   #22
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

1. Jordan
2. Kobe

....though the GAP between them is not as huge as some Jordan homers (Loki) make it out to be.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:11 AM   #23
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Here are Jordan's numbers for his rookie year through 1989 (excluding 1986 where he played 18 games and only ~22 mpg due to a broken foot):

33.2 pts, 6.3 reb, 6.1 ast, 2.9 stl, 1.2 blk, 51.8 % FG


Now compare that to the numbers White Chocolate just posted:

31.1 pts, 5.8 reb, 5.5 ast, 2.7 stl, 1.2 blk, 50.5 FG%


As you can see, the numbers White Chocolate posted were significantly worse than what he actually averaged.

Last edited by Loki : 08-12-2007 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:14 AM   #24
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poseidon
1. Jordan
2. Kobe

....though the GAP between them is not as huge as some Jordan homers (Loki) make it out to be.

Sorry, but the gap is considerable. Not enormous, but there is about a 15-20% difference between them as players imo. That is, on the average day, Kobe has about 80-85% of the impact of Jordan. On a great day, he's about 90% of "great day" Jordan. And on Kobe's absolute best days (e.g., 81 pts, 62 etc.), he's about 92-95% of peak Jordan. Speaking of overall impact on games here, mind you, not strictly scoring, where peak Kobe is more explosive than peak Jordan due to his range.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:15 AM   #25
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Your numbers for Jordan are incorrect. Very incorrect.


28.2 PPG + 22.7 + 37.1 + 35 + 32.5= 155.5/5= 31.1 PPG

6.5 RPG + 3.6 + 5.2 + 5.5 + 8= 28.8/5= 5.76 RPG

5.9 APG + 2.9 + 4.6 + 5.9 + 8= 27.3/5= 5.46 APG

2.4 SPG + 2.1 + 2.9 + 3.2 + 2.9= 13.5/5= 2.7 SPG

.8 BPG + 1.2 + 1.5 + 1.6 + .8= 5.9/5= 1.18 BPG

.515 FG% + .457 + .482 + .535 + .538= 2.527/5= 50.54 FG%

.173 3 PT% + .167 + .182 + .132 + .276= .93/5= 18.6 3 PT%

.845 FT% + .840 + .857 + .841 + .850= 4.233/5= 84.66 FT%


Nope Loki, my numbers are correct.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:18 AM   #26
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Chocolate
28.2 PPG + 22.7 + 37.1 + 35 + 32.5= 155.5/5= 31.1 PPG

6.5 RPG + 3.6 + 5.2 + 5.5 + 8= 28.8/5= 5.76 RPG

5.9 APG + 2.9 + 4.6 + 5.9 + 8= 27.3/5= 5.46 APG

2.4 SPG + 2.1 + 2.9 + 3.2 + 2.9= 13.5/5= 2.7 SPG

.8 BPG + 1.2 + 1.5 + 1.6 + .8= 5.9/5= 1.18 BPG

.515 FG% + .457 + .482 + .535 + .538= 2.527/5= 50.54 FG%

.173 3 PT% + .167 + .182 + .132 + .276= .93/5= 18.6 3 PT%

.845 FT% + .840 + .857 + .841 + .850= 4.233/5= 84.66 FT%


Nope Loki, my numbers are correct.

Your problem is that you're counting a season where he only played 18 games and was rehabbing from a broken foot while playing 22 mpg as equal to a regular full season. Take that season out -- or even just add up the totals as opposed to the per game averages and divide it by total games played -- and tell me what you get.

Thanks.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:26 AM   #27
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Your problem is that you're counting a season where he only played 18 games and was rehabbing from a broken foot while playing 22 mpg as equal to a regular full season. Take that season out -- or even just add up the totals as opposed to the per game averages and divide it by total games played -- and tell me what you get.

Thanks.


If you can't go by season average, you have to go by games played since you can't take away what games he did play:


Here are the stats by games played(345):

32.6 PPG/6.2 RPG/5.9 APG/2.8 SPG/1.2 BPG- 51.1 FG%, 20.2 3 PT%, 84.8 FT%. It's different than both of ours.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:28 AM   #28
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Look, I'm Jordan fan & a Bryant fan and the gap isn't as great as people make it out to be. Kobe is the "anti-Mike" in the fact that non of Jordan's true homers like Bryant. I don't know why this dislike for Kobe exist, but it does nonetheless.

Taking numbers out of the equation is the first thing one must do when comparing Bryant and Jordan. If there ever was a true "Baby Jordan" it would be Kobe. His play on the court reminds most of Jordan's game more than any player in the history of the league. He is not the complete player Jordan is, but that is not a short coming. Many Jordan fans like to scream that "Kobe is not Jordan", but I say who is? To be regarded by many, (and many of his peers) as the greatest equivalent to the consensus Greatest Player Of All Time is something to be proud of.

My ratings of each player:

Jordan= 9.92
Bryant= 9.20
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:30 AM   #29
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Chocolate
If you can't go by season average, you have to go by games played since you can't take away what games he did play:


Here are the stats by games played(345):

32.6 PPG/6.2 RPG/5.9 APG/2.8 SPG/1.2 BPG- 51.1 FG%, 20.2 3 PT%, 84.8 FT%. It's different than both of ours.

Yeah, but much closer to mine than yours (which is why I advised you to do this). And again, you're counting 15 games where he played ~22 mpg and was rehabbing from a broken foot. It's pretty disingenuous to count the '86 season at all, really, since he only played 3 games at normal minutes before he broke his foot.
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Old 08-12-2007, 02:33 AM   #30
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Default Re: Kobe: One thing to change about him?

how did a question about hands turn into a kobe vs. jordan thing.

there's a kobe / jordan thread below this.
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