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Old 08-13-2007, 01:01 PM   #31
RidonKs
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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But the fact is despite all that if you were starting a team from scratch you would pick prime Shaq over prime Bird or Magic. You just would. But that's not how these lists work for people. Why? Because they're retarded. Well. Not that retarded. Not as retarded as the guy who picks Kobe over Duncan. Just a little retarded.
Yep.
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And there's no "especially Bird" about it. I don't get it.
I haven't seen either player play a whole hell of a lot, but as you said, it's common knowledge that if anyone has an edge between the two (as plenty also say it's even), it's probably Magic. Mainly because of the championships I suppose.

Although championships do seem to matter way too much in these threads. You've got people saying role players are better than stars around here. Same type of comparison as, say, Tony Parker to Gilbert Arenas. No doubt in 20 years time, when these guys are long retired, and people are talking about who was better (people who never saw them play I might add), a lot of them might have Tony ahead on their 'lists'. Simply because of accolades.

Eh, I was just curious. So I guess you basically said that Shaq was better than either? Like you said, Kobe has [pretty much] every skill under the sun, but that doesn't make him better than a guy like Duncan, who obviously isn't on the same level in individual talent.

Shaq was a better, more dominant overall player than either, albeit by [probably] a slim margin. He's up there in those accomplishments that people are always throwing around too.

Whatever. Just another reason to hate these lists.
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
1. Magic and Bird had intangibles, in terms of personality, leadership, and clutch plays, much more than Shaq does, funny interviews aside.

Shaq has more personality in his left nut than Larry Bird does in his entire body.

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
2. Shaq barely ever plays a whole regular season, takes games off, etc.

And yet his teams still are at the top of the league, mainly due to him... and they completely fall apart without him. How many games he misses is blown out of proportion anyways.

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
3. Shaq is iconic of nothing, didn't save the NBA, is nobody's favorite player, did not change the game, and nobody patterns their game after him.

Shaq is my favorite player. Without him and Kobe teamed up who the hell knows where the NBA is right now. It'd be even less popular than it currently is. You're talking about a 5+ year layoff with absolutely no true star power between LeBron & MJ.

Shaq absolutely changed the game. He played a major part in the 3 second defensive rule... no fouling off the ball under 2 minutes... he brought a new meaning to the word double team... they had to change the baskets due to him ripping them completely down and people drafted & signed absolute stiffs just simply to combat Shaq and throw another 6 fouls at him. If other teams in the league are singing players simply because of your presence and changing their entire strategy when they play your team, I'd say that's called changing the game. Who else in the league has that? Nobody. I can tell you right now that the majority of teams back in the 80s weren't drafting & signing players simply for the games that they played the Lakers or Celtics. With Shaq, it happened ALL THE TIME.

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
4. Shaq didn't maximize his potential / master basketball like Magic and Bird did. Both those guys were 90% from the line, had every skill known to man at that point, could hit threes, finish anywhere, create for anyone, knew where the other 9 players on the court were at any given time, and had an instinct for creating that I'm not sure anyone in the league today has other than Nash. Nash is another guy who mastered basketball. But he doesn't have the rings, glory, or, perhaps most importantly of all, the 6-9 frame of Magic so that's out.

Who cares about maximizing potential? This is about what was actually done. Shaq was a more dominating force and flat out better player than either Bird or Magic. If he'd "maximized his potential" he obviously would have been even better. But what does that have to do with how good he was in comparison to them or where they should be ranked all time? Nothing, and it shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
But the fact is despite all that if you were starting a team from scratch you would pick prime Shaq over prime Bird or Magic. You just would. But that's not how these lists work for people. Why? Because they're retarded. Well. Not that retarded. Not as retarded as the guy who picks Kobe over Duncan. Just a little retarded.

That's how these lists SHOULD work.
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:11 PM   #33
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by RidonKs
Just out of, you know, curiosity, what's keeping Magic and Bird ahead of Shaq on almost all of these lists, taking into consideration the fact that bigmen are always more important?

Especially Bird. I'd actually love to see a breakdown justifying either of those guys over a guy like Shaq.
i've struggled with this one myself over the years, and then i'll go back and see magic and larry play, and it becomes a little more clear.

geewiz touched on the intangibles, but i think what people forget about bird and magic in hindsight is their ability to create insane chemistry and up the efficiency of their entire teams. part of it is the great passing and unselfishness, which can be contageous and leads to players wanted to make sharp cuts and set good screens because they know they will get the ball for making those efforts. part of it is control of the huddle and lockerroom where everyone is always on the same page because of them. part of it is the ability to completely control the end of the game on the offensive end and the unreal confidence that instilled in teammates.

if you think of what they brought to team chemistry / unity it was something like nash and kidd plus duncan. the fun / energy of the pgs plus the confidence of the dominant big.

the other big advantage i would give to magic and larry is versatility. larry was an all-nba first teamer as a pf and an sf, he led running teams, pound it out teams, could bring in the triple doubles if his needed that or dominate the points or the boards if they needed that. magic began his career at the point forward with wilks and nixon and subbed for kareem at center in the finals. he's a guy who could get you 40 points if necessary but regularly filled the whole stat sheet and helped everyone else score instead of looking for his own shot. he also made an all-nba 1st team on a slow down team in 91 (no one remembers that that team was all about posting perkins, worthy, and divacs, and not at all about the fastbreak anymore). shaq plays pretty much one very effective style.

shaq's advantages are defensive and his ability to dissintigrate a team defense by dominating inside (though lb and magic were good at picking apart a d, they never ruined whole defensive schemes with their mere presense like shaq has done). his biggest drawback is his lack of a clutch scoring ability.

those are the arguments as i see them. if you want to see lb and magic again try some of NBAClassics stuff on youtube. he's got whole games broken into 20 parts and they are fun as hell to watch. obviously you won't get a complete picture of anybody's abilities from watching one or two playoff games but it helps me as a reminder of what i used to watch every weekend that has been gone since 92.
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:24 PM   #34
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by hateraid
If he miraculously got in supreme shape next season, stayed healthy, and lead The Heat to a title and won finals MVP? Does his stock rise and become elite 5 or would it remain the same?

That is big ifs and meaningless.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
3. Shaq is iconic of nothing, didn't save the NBA, is nobody's favorite player, did not change the game, and nobody patterns their game after him.

How old are you?

I don't have the time to explain all of the ways Shaq is an icon and how he changed the game. Somebody else probably will and if not try to find the ESPN Outside the Lines made midway through his rookie season. While you are looking for the ESPN outside the lines I mentioned, look for the MTV special about Shaq (and pick up the Rolling Stones and GQ magazine with Shaq on the cover as a rookie) that talks about the state of the NBA, the financial and marketing problems and how Shaq changed all of that.

I will tell you how he changed a few other basketball related things.

When he was coming out of college, he signed an exclusive deal with Classic cards that meant they were the only company that could produce cards of him for a year. This led to the biggest spike in sports card popularity and counterfeiting ever and also gave birth to the redemption card and rare insert card phenomenon which changed and dominated the sports card industry.

Reebok gave him his own shoe making him the first basketball player to have his own shoe before playing a NBA game - this changed the shoe industry.

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
is nobody's favorite player, and nobody patterns their game after him.

You couldn't be more wrong about him not being the favorite player of anybody. Not only that, due to his international exposure including charity work and television, i'm willing to be he's the favorite NBA player of a lot of people that don't even like basketball.

Also look for an old issue of Inside Stuff with the last page being a letter from Amare to Shaq and he says that Shaq was his favorite player and that he did pattern his game after him.

Looks like you got some homework to do when the school bell rings.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:50 PM   #36
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by geeWiz15
But the fact is despite all that if you were starting a team from scratch you would pick prime Shaq over prime Bird or Magic. You just would. But that's not how these lists work for people. Why? Because they're retarded. Well. Not that retarded. Not as retarded as the guy who picks Kobe over Duncan. Just a little retarded.


Quite frankly I'd pick Magic over anybody ever. Then maybe Mike, but I could see Shaq being my number 2.

But Magic's versatility and ability to make any team better makes him my alltime number 1 draft pick, and that's the reason I always put him over Mike in these best ever lists, even though I think Jordan was a better overall individual talent. But Magic could be a great scorer if he needed to and I think on a lesser team could've put up maybe 26+ for multiple years, could go out and get you 9 boards easily, 11 assists is nothing. He was active defensively and while he wasn't great at guarding smaller pgs, was more than adequate at defending bigger guys, and could help direct team D, plus led the league in steals one year, maybe more. And just one of the greatest leaders of all time.

But anyways, back to Shaq, I'd put him in my top 3 for guys I'd start a team with.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:09 PM   #37
dejordan
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by Y2Gezee
Quite frankly I'd pick Magic over anybody ever. Then maybe Mike, but I could see Shaq being my number 2.

But Magic's versatility and ability to make any team better makes him my alltime number 1 draft pick, and that's the reason I always put him over Mike in these best ever lists, even though I think Jordan was a better overall individual talent. But Magic could be a great scorer if he needed to and I think on a lesser team could've put up maybe 26+ for multiple years, could go out and get you 9 boards easily, 11 assists is nothing. He was active defensively and while he wasn't great at guarding smaller pgs, was more than adequate at defending bigger guys, and could help direct team D, plus led the league in steals one year, maybe more. And just one of the greatest leaders of all time.

But anyways, back to Shaq, I'd put him in my top 3 for guys I'd start a team with.
i'm with you basically. i'd take jordan first because i feel like he is capable of doing the most with the least in terms of making his teammates play harder and more focused ball and limiting their roles to what they are absolutely best at, but i can respect the argument for magic as well. i do think i'd take larry ahead of shaq for the intangibles i mentioned above, but shaq is no worse than 4th in my all "i'd take him to build around" list. if he hadn't had so many personality conflicts and so many years suffering sweeps at the hands of inferior talent, it would a little easier to take him above larry. then again larry's inability to stay healthy after 88-89 hurts him too. very close call there actually.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

Shaq may go down as a top-5 CENTER of all time. but not a top-5 player. He may not even be a top-5 Laker of all time.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:38 PM   #39
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

Shaq needs another dominant player to win. In 04-05, he missed two games against the Wizards in the second round, and the Heat still managed to sweep them. D. Wade had a 30 point game and a 40 point game. During their title run, Shaq had two games where he scored 9 points and 5 points in the NBA finals, and it was D. Wade who carried the Heat for the majority of that post seaosn.

The problem with Shaq has always been that he doesn't have the proper work ethic, and this problem has simply worstened as his career has unfolded.

He could have easily been the best ever, but it's hard not to feel as if he's underachieved to an extent, as crazy as that sounds. As it stands, he is not a top 5 player right now, though, if the premise of this thread were to happen, he would certainly be in the running.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:43 PM   #40
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by BULLS


At worst, Shaq is a top 3 Laker of all-time. Only Kobe and Magic have cases for being better.

Shaq is easily a top 5 player of all-time.

Magic, West & Kareem are DEFINATELY AHEAD of Shaquille " I'll fix my toe on company time" Oneil.
next tier: Shaq, Wilt, Baylor, Kobe (in no particular order)
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:46 PM   #41
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
Magic, West & Kareem are DEFINITELY AHEAD of Shaq.
next tier: Shaq, Wilt, Baylor, Kobe (in no particular order)

I would have to agree with this list... I do contend that if Shaq had the same work eithic of the likes of Kareem, Wilt, etc., he would have been the best ever.



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Old 08-13-2007, 04:49 PM   #42
dejordan
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
Magic, West & Kareem are DEFINATELY AHEAD of Shaquille " I'll fix my toe on company time" Oneil.
next tier: Shaq, Wilt, Baylor, Kobe (in no particular order)
do most lakers fans feel this way? magic, west, and kareem above oneal & wilt in terms of importance to the team? just curious.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:50 PM   #43
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by bleedinpurpleTwo
Magic, West & Kareem are DEFINATELY AHEAD of Shaquille " I'll fix my toe on company time" Oneil.
next tier: Shaq, Wilt, Baylor, Kobe (in no particular order)
West? Jerry West? Over Shaq?

You're bordering on the edge there, man.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:57 PM   #44
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by RidonKs
West? Jerry West? Over Shaq?

You're bordering on the edge there, man.
i can kind of see where they are coming from if it's like an importance to the team's identity sort of ranking. like most suns fans i think would consider barkley a better player but kj a better sun, if you get my drift.
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Old 08-13-2007, 05:06 PM   #45
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Default Re: Where would Shaq rank all-time?

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Originally Posted by dejordan
i can kind of see where they are coming from if it's like an importance to the team's identity sort of ranking. like most suns fans i think would consider barkley a better player but kj a better sun, if you get my drift.
Seems like some pretty backwards logic though, to me at least.

It's not like Shaq just went to the Lakers for a few years either, the majority of his career accomplishments (almost all of them as a matter of fact) came with LA. This isn't like MJ being the best Wizard or anything like that. When you have to associate Shaq with a team, it is inevitably the Lakers.
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