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Old 08-13-2007, 09:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Why Pete Maravich shouldn't be ranked near 50

Courtesy of Glove, here's what Charley Rosen wrote of Maravich for his Most Overrated Players of All-time list:


Quote:
A one-man circus who wouldn't throw a pass unless it was behind the back or through the legs or in one ear and out the other. And his completion rate was barely above .500. His ball-hogging made him unpopular with his teammates, but scored big-time with the media. It's no accident that his teams were always pretenders and never contenders. It also says here that Maravich was the worst defender in NBA history.

Many honest basketball critics who've seen Maravich play--who worked in the NBA when Maravich played--don't hold him in the same regard as casual fans and glorifying media do. Pat Riley called him "the most overrated superstar."

Here's what Kblaze said in an earlier thread about Maravich when comparing him to Sam Jones:


Quote:
Sam is the anti Maravich I believe. Unlike Pete he was very highly regarded in his prime and now he isnt. While Pete wasnt really wanted in is time(according to his own GM in his beyond the glory he tried for a year to trade Maravich and nobody would take him). Sam was a massive winner and Pete wasnt. Sam has 10 titles and Pete has one of(if not the worst) career winning percentage of players in the HOF. Sam had a rep as a do it all player who would take any role to win. Pete had a rep as a selfish guy who just wanted to look flashy. Sam was the second best shooting(by percentage) guard in the league to Oscar at points.

Sam retired and got underrated by fans who didnt watch him and Pete retired and got overrated by fans who didnt watch him(going by the opinions it seems people had when they did play).

Sam Jones is the antithesis of Pistol Pete. I consider that(for the most part) a good thing.


Maravich's flashy game easily translates to the highlight films. In the age of ESPN, the media and many fans treat basketball as though it were highlight films. In fact, NBA basketball is a team game with the purpose of winning.

Pete Maravich wasn't a great team player, or even a very good one. His teams lost more than they won. Maravich only got out of the first round of the playoffs in the last season of his career, where he averaged about 12 MPG in the playoffs.

Here's the records on Maravich's teams:
Hawks pre-Maravich: 48-34 and made the Western Division Finals. The Hawks would have about the same team for the entire Maravich tenure + Maravich that they had this season. That included Lou Hudson, Walt Bellamy and forgotten outstanding rebounder and defensive player Bill Bridges.

Enter Pistol Pete
1971: 36-46
1972: 36-46
1973: 46-36
1974: 35-47

Maravich is traded to the expansion franchise New Orleans Jazz (same state as Maravich's college and in need of a marquee player)
1975: 23-59
1976: 38-44
1977: 35-47

Gail Goodrich and Truck Robinson join for this one.
1978: 39-43

Goodrich retires and Maravich goes into rapid, injury-induced decline and retires in a couple seasons.

That's another thing against Maravich. He only played 658 games in 10 seasons. That's 65.8 games per season for only 10 seasons. When we were discussing Bill Walton, we were talking about an all-around great player, an unselfish leader and MVP, a 2-time NBA champion. Maravich was a selfish, limited player who's team lost most often. Maravich had no significant MVP placements during his career despite being a prolific scorer.

As Rosen said, Maravich wasn't as good of a passer as the highlight films indicate. His assist numbers are less than to be expected from such a creative passer who dominated the ball and was a genuine scoring threat. 5.4 APG is nothing to be ashamed of, but it's less than you'd expect after the highligh films. Furthermore, look at the limited turnover numbers on him (limited because the NBA didn't keep track of turnovers until the 1977-78 season). For the 1978 and 1979 season, when Maravich was still around his peak, he averaged 5 and 4.1 turnovers per game to go along with 6.7 APG and 5 APG. And you can't say it was because his passing was ahead of its time. Bob Cousy didn't have similar trouble.

Additionally, Maravich is often acknowledged to have been an atrocious defensive player. Even those who rank him highly admit that he was bad defensively. Rosen isn't the only one I've heard suggest Maravich as the worst defensive player in NBA history. Pistol Pete doesn't belong in the top 50, nor near it.

One final thing: why are people mentioning Maravich's performances in college--and high school of all things--in a discussion of the greatest NBA players of all-time. Maravich's non-professional basketball career isn't relavant and shouldn't matter.
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:27 AM   #17
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

D-Fence You are top 3 best posters on this site...Keep up the good work brother...
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:32 AM   #18
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:

My vote goes to Artis "A-Train" Gilmore.

Other than some random playing tape, looking at his statistics and accolades and a hell of a lot of research and reading, my knowledge of Gilmore is limited. But from what I've seen and heard, he is an all-time great, no doubt. He played in the ABA for his early career, then played in the NBA in '76. Putting up career averages of 22/17/3/3 in the ABA, 17/10/2/2 in the NBA and 18/12/2/2 combined, Gilmore was a dominant player in the 70's and early 80's. He was called The A-Train by fans and peers because he was one of the strongest players to ever play the game. He was well conditioned as well, playing in the NBA and ABA for 17 years. He once played 670 consecutive games. His statline of games played throughout his career:

84, 84, 84, 84, 84, 82, 82, 82, 48, 82, 82, 82, 64, 81, 71, 82, 71. He only had two seasons where he missed a significant amount of games.

Gilmore set the NCAA Divsion I record for most RPG averaged with 22.7 when he was in college, a record that still stands today. He was a shotblocker and excellent defender, averaging a career high 5.0 blocks per game in his rookie year in the ABA. He was a dominant force since day one. He's a 5x All-Defensive team member, and was top 10 in BPG and total blocks in every year of his career except his last three. Gilmore was a great leaper and athletic freak, quite frankly. He was a solid free throw shooter, too, for a big man, shooting 70% for a career average. Artis Gilmore is also top 25 all-time among points scored, top 10 all time in rebounds, blocked shots, games and minutes played. He also has the all-time highest career field-goal shooting percentage in both the NBA and the ABA. He's an 11x NBA All-Star, ABA MVP, ABA Rookie of the Year and ABA All-Star MVP, as well as an ABA Playoffs MVP. By the way, he was the league MVP and ROY in the same year, and he went 68-16 in his rookie year, 24 more than the previous year. He was an instant force in the NBA since day one. In his rookie year, he was 10th in PPG, 1st in RPG and 1st in FG%. His high FG%s always stood out, with him having the highest FG% of all-time with .599%. Gilmore even led the NBA in field goal percentage in 4 consecutive seasons, shooting a career best .670% one year.

Gilmore is a 5x All-NBA Team selection member, all in a row, all 1st Team. He won a ring in '75 with Kentucky in the NBA and captured the playoff MVP. During his ABA career, Gilmore established ABA records for career field goal percentage (0.557), career blocked shots (750), blocked shots in a season (287 in the 1973-74 season), and rebounds in a game (40), and is a member of the ABA All-Time team. He's second all-time in the NBA in total rebounds with 7169, and has been a top 10 RPG leader in the ABA and NBA combined for all the years of his career, except the last three. (Led the ABA in total rebounds for 5 straight seasons). He's been top 10 in the ABA and NBA in total points scored 7 times. Again, he's one of the most efficient players in NBA history. He has the highest FG% in NBA history and the highest FG% in ABA history. Gilmore led the NBA in true shooting percentage for 5 straight years, and has been top 5 in true shooting percentage for every single year of his career from start to end in the NBA and ABA. He's shot over 60% 5 times and he's been top 10 in PPG five times in his ABA and NBA career. In his ABA prime, he put up 18/18/3/3 in one year, and 23/16/2/3 the next year. His career high total points is 2003 and his career high total rebounds is 1491, set in his rookie year.

Even with all that, it's not like Gilmore was playing in an era where he was the only great player. There was Rick Barry, Billy Cunningham, Julius Erving, George Gervin, Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Moses Malone, David Thompson, just to name a few. Then when he came to the NBA, he had to compete with the likes of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Elvin Hayes, Moses Malone, Michael Jordan, George Gervin, Julius Erving, Adrian Dantley, Wes Unseld, Tiny Archibald, John Lucas, World B. Free, Eddie Johnson, Michael Ray Richardson, Pete Maravich, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish and Bill Walton, just to name a few. The fact that he led/was near the top of the league in rebounds and field goal percentage in that era is amazing. If your'e going to penalize Gilmore for putting up great numbers in the ABA, you might as well penalize Barry, Erving, Malone, as well, because a part of what they did in their career happened in the ABA as well. Gilmore has proven he can do what he did in the ABA in the NBA. His points and rebounds weren't as high as they were in the ABA because of better competition, but he was still a force to be reckoned with, without a doubt.

Gilmore was a very talented player on the court as well, and could score in many ways in the post, whether it was a banker, a baby hook, a finger roll, an up and under, or a dunk, he was a proven scorer down in the post. He was a feared shot blocker, amazing rebounder, great low-post defender, was athletic, and had skill, not just raw power. He was the ultimate prototypcial center. He did everything he was supposed to throughout his career: score, rebound, block and be efficient, and he did them all very well. He teamed up with Dan Issel in the frontcourt to form a 1-2 punch combo, and they lead the Colonels to 2 ABA Finals, winning the championship once. Gilmore was picked first in the NBA dispersal draft, over the likes of Moses Malone, Maurice Lucas and other stars.

'Gilmore and the Bulls erupted in the second half of the season, however, winning 20 of their last 24 games and making the playoffs with a 44-38 record. In a late-season game against the Seattle SuperSonics, Gilmore registered 32 points, 17 rebounds, 5 assists and 4 blocks. In a game against the 76ers, he had 29 points and 23 rebounds, while holding Philadelphia's three centers to a combined 13 points and 13 rebounds.'

He was traded to the Spurs later to join George Gervin, and became an NBA All-Star one last time. Gilmore was known to be one of the best and toughest at guarding Kareem-Abdul Jabbar, a player with a reasonable argument for being the greatest of all-time. Artis Gilmore is only one of 24 players to score over 20,000 points in his professional career. Gilmore's career NBA statline and ABA/NBA accolades:

- 17.1 PPG, 15, 579 NBA points, 1,747 blocks, 470 steals, 2.0 APG, 1,777 assists, 10.1 RPG, 9,161 rebounds, .713 FT%, .599 FG%, 909 games played.
- 11x NBA All-Star, ABA MVP and ROY, ABA All-Star MVP, ABA Playoffs MVP, 5x All-ABA First Team, 6x All-ABA/NBA Defensive Team combined.
Artis Gilmore, again.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:34 AM   #19
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

And as D-Fence said, can somebody explain to me how the hell Pistol Pete is probably going to get in at 52? Somebody give me a nice, solid argument as to how he deserves this spot. I really would like to know.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Spree

He still has a family to feed...
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:53 AM   #21
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

T-mac
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Old 08-13-2007, 11:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 08-13-2007, 12:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Joe Dumars
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Alex English.
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 08-13-2007, 02:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 08-13-2007, 02:51 PM   #27
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

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Old 08-13-2007, 03:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Does anyone honestly think Dumars is better than McGrady?

T-mac.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie2k6
And as D-Fence said, can somebody explain to me how the hell Pistol Pete is probably going to get in at 52? Somebody give me a nice, solid argument as to how he deserves this spot. I really would like to know.
A legitimate argument for McGrady votes wouldn't be bad either.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:30 PM   #30
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Default Re: Official #52 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Why are you people voting T-mac??? When he gets far in the playoffs then he will be closer to top 50 not now.

I vote for Adrian Dantley.
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